Our Christian Heritage?

And is that not exactly what His4ever said, and what you invited us all to debate (or, more, show her why she is wrong)? Because she is Jane Q Public, member and moderately regular attender of whatever church she belongs to, and she sees what she conceives of as Christian values and what she believes American values are (or ought to be) going hand in hand.

Which argument, it seems to me, is not all that far from saying that America was founded on Christian principles (which is a mere stone’s throw from saying "exclusively Christian principles, IMO), or that American law ought to better emulate whatever view one takes of NT/OT law, or really any number of other things.

And it is my specific contention that this is not the case: that some things His4ever thinks should be American values or Christian values either are not or should not be. For example, IIRC in the past she’s expressed the idea that, per Biblical instruction, men should have more say in a given situation than women, all other things being equal. I intensely disagree with both the end and beginning premise. I had thought I’d addressed that (Christian values should be/are American values) specifically in the post of mine to which you responded.

And it was not with them in mind that I posted as I did (I know that’s not your implication, but I also think it’s important to emphasize that I am not taking a worst-case scenario in terms of the history of Christians’ activity in this country. This is just my overall sense of what has been the case).

However, lest the “good man who gets ignored” come to be the case again, I would completely agree with the premise “As there were many who used the Bible to justify their own wishes (i.e. less freedom/equality for the non-white or non-male or non-protestant/catholic/whatever or non-whatever else) for this society, so were there many who did not”, FWTW.

Insofar as I now understand your point, yes. However, I still disagree with you, though it’s a different debate and one I doubt I could win, what with the volume of cites you’d show me:)

Ah, hell, pun, you win this one on points. People are ignorant of that which they haven’t thought through but just “have a general feeling about.” John Q. was probably a Biblical literalist, back in his day, but didn’t see that there was any contradiction between that and America-as-the-melting-pot, separation-of-church-and-state, live-and-let-live and related values. He never had a clue what Katherine Lee Bates meant by the various choruses in her patriotic song, given who she was and who she loved; he just espoused the vague patriotism-and-liberty sentiment he associated with it.

The day I start arguing that undefined “Christian values” are key to our liberty is the day that I need to stop posting. I just downright hate that somebody pre-empted “Christian values” from “what Jesus taught” to “the personal prejudices I happen to hold dear,” and I got caught up in arguing a point from an untenable perspective.

You owe me one, hear?!? :smiley:

Here are some cites for you Apos, although I know they will not be good enough for you. :frowning:

Was Washington a Christian? (with references)

A prayer journal of GW.

Here it sounds like he believes in God. (GW is talking to Jews)

“relative to a monument to this great beloved, revered, and dignified man and Christian.”

Christian quotes from presidents.

Freyr, I don’t have a need to label this country as a Christian nation. I have a problem with people labeling it as a non Christian nation. Why is there a need for either?
What makes me upset is the need people have for taking away things that have always been, because all of a sudden someone is “enlighened”. :rolleyes:
some building has a nativity scene up and has had it there for 70 years, and all of a sudden some idiot wants to complain.

DoctorJ, I know you are not going to like this answer, along with many others, but I do think the ACLU is anti Christian.
Here is where the can of worms gets opened, and I apologize ahead of time, but this is the way much of society works.
We have affirmative action. A company HAS to hire minorites to make up for the past racism. Now, Mr. White doesn’t like Mr. Mexican, but not only does he have to hire him, but it looks good to his customers. They think he is fair. They know he doesn’t like Mr. Mexican, “but what a fair guy”.
The ACLU defends 3 Christians, (just an example) but bashes and sues 1000. The ACLU defends 1000 Muslims, (just an example) and bashes 3.
Doesn’t look fair to me.

Sorry, Iampunha and Polycarp, but it’s very difficult for me to be neutral to His4Ever. She wishes to hurt me and mine by supporting legal discrimination, by preaching that we are vermin, by making our lives as difficult as possible.

Has she supported legal discrimination? How?

Keep in mind, gobear, I am trying to see what you see.

Well, I’m not 100% sure she’s all of that, gobear, but she sure supports those who do. And I respect your desire to combat what she stands for. (BTW, look at pages 7 and 8 of the Gay Teens thread, if you would – you may be moved to make a comment or two, and I’d like it if you did.)

Read what she posted in the Gay Teens thread, JD.

Do you see definition 3 there, Jersey? The word, when used as an adjective, doesn’t always mean someone who worships Christ.

Gobear, I read through the Gay teens thread, and I didn’t see anything that supported legal discrimination against gays.
If you have a moment, could you point out to me where she is discriminating?

Actually, I’m going to retract that, since she didn’t actually state that she supports making homosexuality illegal. But I bet I know what her answer must be.

Jersey Diamond, no offense meant, but it’s all too easy for me to read your post as, “My mind’s made up. Don’t confuse me with the facts.” It isn’t Muslims, Jews, Wiccans or anyone else who are arguing for prayer or the teaching of their religious beliefs in schools; it’s Christians. You said,

I realize this is a cliche, but that same argument really was used 150 years ago to justify slavery. To say the U.S. was always a Christian nation is simply, factually wrong.

You’re right. Things have changed. Part of what’s changed is people who didn’t feel it was safe to complain about things that hurt them do now. I admit I don’t always see what the big deal about a nativity scene is; on the other hand, I’ve never been a kid who has to explain that she can’t be Mary in the school Christmas pageant because she isn’t Christian.

Please, re-read what I posted and tell me if you see it as evidence of Christianity in decline. As it happens, in between these two posts I spoke with a Wiccan friend of mine, and he confirmed that the two shops I mentioned are the only ones he knows of around here.

CJ

Because as a matter of objective fact, this is a non-Christian country, and it is explicitly spelled out as such in the establishment clause of the first amendment.

Just because something has “always been” a certain way, doesn’t mean that that way is right or legal. Christians have basically been able to steamroll all religious minorities for the bulk of Ametrican history. Those minorities are now getting big enough to fight back. Sometimes it takes a while for the American ethos to catch up in practical terms to the ideals of the constitution.

No one is trying to remove nativity displays from private property, what is unacceptable and illegal is allowing such displays on state property, because that is tantamount to a government endorsement of religion. You have have six different cows if you ever saw a Satanic display at your post office, and Christian displays are no more appropriate.

1.) What does affirmative action have to do with religion?

2.) I have no idea where you’re getting your numbers, my guess is thin air or maybe the 700 Club, but even taking your numbers at face value, I would say that since Christianity is, by far, the majority religion you should naturally expect that the majority of discrimination is going to be against non-Christians.

Diogenes, Diogenes, I’ll point out some key words to answer your bottom questions:
answer to question one… It’s called an analogy
answer to question two… I think the key words here were “just an example”

Read more carefully

I am on my way to dinner and a movie, so I’ll chat more later.
JD

And when you come back, Jersey, please answer my question about that LDS candidate.

Jersey, if one is to understand your use of the phrase “just an example”, do you mean to suggest that A) it is a hypothetical (and as such rather irrelevant to the entire point) or … what? I’m not seeing how, if it’s an actual example, the burden of proof is on you to show how this is being done.

The situation you have presented does not look fair inasmuch as the facts you have presented in your example are the only ones worth noting. However, what point are you trying to prove through said example?

And gobear, remember that the thoughts she has on your existence re: sexuality are not so far separated from hers on mine. I am trying here to take the high ground, morally, because I think in doing so I can reach her. I have been trying to do just that for some months now. You might think of it as me forgetting who I am or willingly conversing with an anti-gay person, and I certainly acknowledge the latter. However, it is (in part) specifically because of who I am that I do this. If you disagree, I at least hope you’ll understand.

**

Jersey, I’ll say it again: the prayer at Valley Forge is a complete myth. The doubtful testimony of one man seeking for a little of Wasington’s fame to rub off on himself does not a historical truth make. Because of Washington’s fame, a lot of people made up stories of how they witnessed an event (much like a million or so people claim to have been at Woodstock) or spoke with Washington, when such an event never occurred. There are hundreds of inns who claim that Washington Slept Here, when most likely, he didn’t.

I have my doubts about Washington’s “Prayer Journal,” because after a quick search, all I found were links to Christian sites. I have heard in the past of documents supposedly written by Washington which are not even in his handwriting. I cannot state for a fact that this is the case, but the possiblility exists. It’s also entirely possible that it’s genuine, but what does this prove when it comes to Washington’s intentions as to religion and government? His private faith has no bearing on what kind of secular system that the Founding Fathers created. On the contrary, it seems they strove to keep religion out of government.

As for the Christian quotes, as I said before, through a selective search of the FF’s writings, you can find many positive comments about religion, and you can also find many scathing comments. The problem is with selecting the ones which support a certain point of view to the exclusion of all others.

We see the same type of “evidence” which made Plymoth Rock a national shrine. On the basis of one man’s word a monument was created, but it has been roundly debunked by historians. The myth is a lot more fun than the truth, I suppose.

My problem with it is historical accuracy. Re-writing history to provide a slant to support a point of view or agenda is wrong. There’s nothing wrong at all with celebrating certain individuals’ faith, but to edit out their true intentions, and to insist that faith existed where it did not is wrong. I think that the Fathers made their intentions quite clear, despite those who would strive to “prove” that they intended otherwise.

Again, my doubts are not that Washington was or was not a Christian. I could see either (though, having taken an extensive look, I am left where most scholars are: we don’t really know). What I am highly dubious of is that Washington would deviate from his well-known quietude on religious matters. While he would not speak openly of his beliefs, he made it plain that he considered it inappropriate to speak about them, especially in office (he even famously misread a Continental Congress decree of fasting and prayer to omit a reference to Christ).

What makes me doubt, for instance, the claim that Washington prayed at Valley Forge in the way the famous painting depicted is not that I don’t think he ever could have prayed. It is because he never would have prayed as is described: out loud, kneeling in public like a Pharisee for our special vistor to creep up and observe like a boy in a Mark Twain tale. What your cite doesn’t think to mention is that story originally came not from Potts directly, but through the intercession of the redoubtable Parson Weems, famous for the cherry tree story. THAT is why it isn’t taken very seriously by historians. You can read more in Rupert Hughes’ George Washington (1930) vol. III, ch. 25

You also seem not understand what Diesm is. It is a form of theism, not atheism. It includes Providence a Creator, and so on. It simply does not include divinity of Christ or doctrines like the Trinity or original sin, salvation, etc…

So, I’m not sure why you think, for instance, a reference to Abraham makes Washington out to be a believer in the divinity of Christ. Or even that he instructs Indians to be schooled as Christians (Christianizing was seen as the best way to civilize Indians).

Further, your first cite says: “Washington’s own contemporaries did not question his Christianity but were thoroughly convinced of his devout faith.”

This is simply not true. In fact, it’s patently ridiculous, because Spark’s book, quoted extensively on that page, was in part prompted by so many people doubting it! The fact is, many contemporary Christians fretted over Washington’s beliefs, and tried again and again to get him to say something direct about his religion. Indeed, it made for some rather amusing escapades:

“Dr. Rush told me (he had it from Asa Green) that when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, and they thought they should so pen their address as to force him at length to disclose publicly whether he was a Christian or not. However, he observed, the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly, except that, which he passed over without notice.” Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson’s Works (Vol. 4) p. 572

Even Washington’s friends and the religious leaders at Washington’s church (as I have already noted, the rector at Washingon’s church thought he was a Deist) questioned what he believed. He coyly avoided all direct inquiry. Jefferson said he wasn’t sure, and that Morris told him that Washington had no more belief in Christianity than Morris did.

So, utterly regardless of whether Washington was a Christian or not, this cite starts off with an easily demonstrable lie: a lie that it provides internal evidence for debunking (containing documents which are responses to the then contemporary suggestion that Washington might not have been a Christian. What we know for sure is that Martha Washington was a Christian. What we know is that Washington had great respect for Christianity (though, far from being as described by Nelly, who knew him only briefly, he slipped out the back of his church to avoid communion, and when his pastor told him that this was disruptive, Washington was apologetic and simply ceased to come on the days when communion was given. We know that he shared the belief with many Deists that Christianity was a great device for enriching, civilizing, and pacifying the common man and “savages.” But none of this tells us much about Washington’s private beliefs.

—We see the same type of “evidence” which made Plymoth Rock a national shrine. On the basis of one man’s word a monument was created, but it has been roundly debunked by historians.—

A ninety-year old man recalling it thirdhand: his father, who had arrived three years AFTER the Mayflower, told him about it when he was a boy.

Plymouth Rock is actually even more hilarious than that. You see, sometime after it gained small fame, the people of Plymoth realized that the rock was now much too far inland to make much of a visual impact or reasonable first landing site. So they tried to move it closer to the ocean. In the process, they broke it in half!

And of course, the Pilgrims didn’t land first in Plymouth anyway: they first landed in Provincetown.

Don’t even get me started on the Liberty Bell. :slight_smile:

I agree completely. Calling them “Christian principles” is technically accurate, though misses the whole picture. “Democracy is the form of government used by Italians” would be a similar statement, I guess. No argument from me on this issue.

The DoI, no matter how flawed, was the document that declared to the world why the colonies were seceding. American law may not be based on it. If it were, we would have no death penalty, as the DoI states that life in an inalienable right. But you can bet your bottom dollar that the country was partially founded on the document. After all, July 4th, Independence Day is the date that the DoI was adopted by Congress. The US was founded on the DoI. The DoI states that life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness are inalienable rights. I don’t understand how someone could argue that this country was not founded upon these principles, no matter how flawed the following laws were formed with regards to slavery, inequitable suffrage, etc.

The Christianity I follow, and the Christianity I believe was taught by Jesus, most definitely espouses liberty and equality of all of humanity, at least in God’s eyes. Of course, there is no way for me to prove this to you, I’m sorry. Remember, I’m not one of those “Bible=Infallible” folks.

Christian teachings:

—After all, July 4th, Independence Day is the date that the DoI was adopted by Congress.—

This is irrelevant to our discussion, but interesting. As I understand it, Congress actually declared it on July 2nd, and then celebrated it for the first time on July 8th. The 4th just happened to be a date when the news was most widely published (which is a neat example of how ahistorical our modern idea of a “national event” is: back then, news just didn’t travel fast enough for it to outpace the passage of days!) This myth of the 4th being the day of declaration was so strong that people have altered documents to “correct” it. In the nineteenth century, a scholar found a letter penned by John Adams on the 3rd that stated that “the 2nd day of July, 1776, will be the most memorable Epocha in the history of America. I am apt to believe it will be celebrated… as the great anniversary Festival.” The scholar altered (rather sloppily) the date of the letter to read the 4th, and Adams to be talking about the 4th!

—The Christianity I follow, and the Christianity I believe was taught by Jesus, most definitely espouses liberty and equality of all of humanity, at least in God’s eyes. Of course, there is no way for me to prove this to you, I’m sorry.—

You don’t have to prove it to anyone, it’s true simply because you say/believe it. But what does that have to do with what Christians back then thought about these things?

It’s tempting to read our own conceptions of those principles back in time, but the fact is they meant something very different to the people of the day, and even THEN they were controversial, not simply heralded as being something all Christians then acknowledged as being correct. Heck, we fought a Civil War over competing interpretations of those values!