We’ve all heard of outsourcing, but the law? In an interview Sasha Baron Cohen mentioned that for a scene in Ali-G he had an expert in state law (Arkansas?) who was actually a guy living in India, on standby.
This sounds like a bad idea that no one should ever mimic. Where can I find a link to this so I can make sure no one ever does that?
Sounds like the guy in India was just doing legal research. Actually practicing law in Arkansas requires admittance to the Arkansas bar. Practicing law without a license is bigly illegal.
It’s eleven years old, but this article from The New York Times describes how major corporations and white-shoe law firms outsource legal work to India.
I once knew a law professor, who taught law at a university, who had never passed the state bar and could not legally practice law. But he held all the appropriate law degrees, and could still put the letters after his name, and can still research the law and offer opinions on their interpretations. But he cannot “advise” a person to act in a manner that purports to be professionally legal.
The definition of “practice law” is murky, and appears to vary by jurisdiction. But would, in most cases, be limited to the appearance in a court for ongoing litigation.
I agree that what it is to “practice law” is somewhat murky, but the core of it is providing legal advise or representation to a client. It is significantly broader than appearing for a client in court.
Non-litigation law practice includes advising and representing clients in connection with contracts, real estate, corporate transactions, taxation, employment issues, regulation, wills and estates, intellectual property and a host of other law-related issues.
One thing the practice of law is not, however, is giving generally applicable explanations of the law and legal principals, that is to say, not related to any particular client. As such, a law professor is not, by reason of his or her research, writing and teaching, not practicing law. Many law professors do actually represent clients and practice law, often in pro bono or public interest matters, but to do so they would have to be licensed in the appropriate jurisdiction.
He was Sri Lankan, not Indian. As I recall he did not state whether he actually had passed a US Bar exam, which he might have. Lots of lawyers who deal in international commercial law will sit for and pass the NYS or DC Bars. I myself have thought about it.
As for “outsourcing”, it tends to be scut and grunt work and is not something that is highly sought after. Stuff like legal research or drafting pleadings etc.
Actual legal advice is something, anyone with a law degree would avoid, its not worth the absolote shit storm that can fall on your head.
Lawyer, especially corporate law types often have to deal with foreign law & will gain a good working knowledge of foreign law and have access to journal and databases, but no one will actually advise, you’ll law out the salient points thats it.
It’s like the difference between a practicing doctor and a medical researcher. They can provide information, but not diagnoses, and definitely not advice.
I’ve experienced this in the context of a complex Intellectual Property negotiation. The guy in India actually was highly knowledgeable and provided some much needed input. I will say though that it made scheduling conference calls an absolute nightmare, and his connection was always bad, which added frustration. On balance,the CO who engaged him in said he wouldn’t do it again.
Speaking of doctors, perhaps 10-15 years ago, I read that one hospital (Massachusetts Gemeral, I think) was outsourcing radiology reading to India. This is the job where a radiologist (medical doctor) sits at a large screen looking at digital x-rays and decides if and where someone has a broken bone, or a tumor or whatever is being tested for. In some US hospitals, this is done in a darkened reading room. In this case, the digital x-rays were being viewed by a person sitting at a large screen somewhere in India, deciding if and where someone has a broken bone or a tumor or whatever. The person is a medical doctor who is fully licensed in the US, and probably board-certified, but is cheaper than a US-based radiologist. (Perhaps this is someone born in India who was living in the US but chose to move back home for whatever reason.)
I’m curious what you mean by this. How would you propose to go about stopping people in other countries from doing whatever they want, legal or illegal?
I’ve outsourced Legal issues and work in 3 countries: India, Philippines, and China. My issues were limited largely to Patent and Trademarking, import/export and encryption, and corporate formation/trad corporate law (but mostly the IP stuff). The Philippines was far and away the best to outsource, imo. I found Indian work to be largely repetitive of the law, but little on analysis and even less on advice. The Chinese firms I dealt with felt like I was getting the shake down and they communicated to me using Google translate.
As AK84 stated, it is mostly scut work, i.e. here is an issue, please brief me on the issue. It’s work I would give 3rd-5th year associates if I was still working at a firm, but I would have to have a long call with them to clarify several things (and in the case of the Chinese firms, several long calls and possibly a visit). Maybe the Filipinos I would take with me to a negotiation, but definitely not anyone else.
However, that is not to say that any lawyer I have worked with is not trainable. Like with all outsourcing opportunities, the calculus is price determinative. However, even if Indians are still 1/4 pay of the US, I don’t think it’s worth it to put on salary.
Yes, scut work like ploughing through thousands of docs and organising them for the purposes of litigation is something I can see being easily out-sourced.
I wouldn’t out-source pleadings or research, but that’s the nature of my particular practice. It doesn’t have broad application across countries, like commercial law or IP stuff, but is more specific to my own jurisdiction, so I wouldn’t expect researchers or pleaders in other countries to be up to speed on it. (Not meant as a critique of lawyers in other countries, just a question of relative familiarity with the topics.)
Well, to put it bluntly, the leading legal minds in those countries are not going to be lining up to do drudge work for you. You aren’t getting top drawer people. Someone in Shanghai, Mumbai or Manila (or for that matter Karachi or Dhaka or Kuala Lumpur) will easily get a placement in a firm or chambers which is far more interesting and lucrative.
Large firms will often outsource and refer work to regional co-counsel, but thats a different kettle of fish and you still have to pay the same.
Thats pretty big now. Its not outsourcing, but rather telemedicine. Its fairly common now, you’ll see surgeries being performed under the guidance of remote doctors.
I would start by developing a sense of humor.
Information in this thread is great, thanks all.
My brother’s got an acquaintance that does that in Sydney. The great advantage (other than being cheaper than someone who lives in NYC), is that he works “night shift” without having to be paid shift rates. He goes into a dark room in the morning Sydney time, and handles a NYC night shift.
Doctors from India are an interesting special case: a doctor from a good medical school in India is as good a doctor as anybody, but may have two cultural traits marking them out from American born doctors: If they are high-caste Hindus, that makes you an untouchable. They don’t like to touch untouchables. And secondly, they won’t like to be so rude as to tell you something you don’t want to hear.
So what’s a smart, educated, high caste doctor from India with American post-graduate qualifications to do? Something important and valuable where they don’t have to deal directly with American patients or even American colleagues – off-site radiology. This isn’t a group of people competing just on price.
[Moderating]
I don’t see where exactly the joke was in that statement. If you are going to post “jokes” like that you should either make them clearer or add a smiley. Otherwise people are going to comment on your apparent meaning.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Remove your hat and slowly place it back on the hook.
It’s called a meme, old timer.
Moderator Note
It may be a meme to you, but obviously not to everyone. If it’s meant to be a joke, it isn’t a very funny one. And if people don’t recognize your joke, it’s your fault, not theirs. Being snarky when people take it at face value is jerkish.
Don’t do this again, and particularly don’t get snarky when people ask you to clarify.
Any further discussion of moderation should be taken to ATMB.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Hey Colibri, want to take a guess as to how many people in this thread understood it was a joke versus didn’t?
I’ll see you in the pit.