Pacifist's boyfriend kills someone in self-defense. Is breaking up a reasonable response?

In My Humble Opinion
1

Another Rhymer hypothetical, obviously. Here’s the sitch:

Today’s story stars Robert and Avery and is set, oh, sometime in the last decade, during the height of opposition to the Iraq War. Both Robert & Avery are very active in anti-war activism, albeit for different reasons. Robert is pretty much a total atheist; he is personally unwilling to ever do violence to another human being and thinks that there is no such thing as a just war. His boyfriend, Avery, does not quite agree. In fact Avery is a veteran – a former Marine drill instructor who got cashiered from the service under* Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, But Still Find a Way to Chase all the Gays Out.* He opposes the Iraq War because he judges that particular conflict to be both immoral and unwise, but he’s not willing to say that about every war; in fact, he served with distinction during the Desert Storm, something Robert tries not to think about. Deeply in love, Robert & Avery have long since agreed to disagree on the issue of total pacifism.

One night, Robert & Avery are in a straight bar with a group of friends, celebrating the anniversary of another couple in the group. They’re discreet, as they always are in public, not even holding hands for fear of attracting homophobic attention. But tonight that proves impossible. A pair of burly, drunken oafs decides that that the short, slender Robert is too effete for their taste and starts insulting him. Avery takes offense to this and tells the oafs to shut up. One of the oafs immediately backs down; the other does not, but instead focuses his animus on Avery exclusively–making quiet but crude comments, equally offensive gestures, and bumping into him “accidentally” several times. Robert can tell that Avery is fighting to control his temper. Ultimately the bar’s bouncer tells the oafs and their girlfriends to leave. Robert and Avery think that is the end of it.

Unfortunately it isn’t. The oafs leave the bar but not the neighborhood, waiting nearby for R & A to leave. A couple of hours later, as R & A are walking to their car, the oafs accost them and manage to get in between them and their car. Robert tries to defuse the situation with words to no avail. Avery doesn’t seem angry or afraid; he is, instead, very calm as he tells the oafs that if they’re smart they’ll leave the couple be. This amuses the oafs, and one spits on Avery, which he ignores. But then the other punches Robert. Avery responds to this with a couple of quick blows that take him down. The less aggressive oaf quickly backs down. But the more aggressive one is now humiliated as well as angry, and he pulls a knife and goes for the nearest person–Robert, as it happens. A scuffle ensues, with the two girlfriends begging the oaf to stop and Robert doing the same for Avery. Avery again wins quickly – but, in the process, both he and the oaf get hurt badly. The oaf dies.

A police investigation ensues. The physical evidence and witnesss statements support Avery’s claim of self-defense, and he is cleared of any wrongdoing–at least in the eyes of the law. But Robert’s eyes are something else again. He can’t bear the thought of a human life being extinguished on his behalf; he feels no less guilty than if he himself had delivered the fatal stroke. Equally disturbing is Avery’s lack of remorse. When Robert asks if he regrets what happened, Avery says, “No. I didn’t start the fight. I tried to avoid the fight. I don’t like killing people, but I’m not about to put on sackcloth and ashes because I had to kill someone who was trying to hurt the man I love.”

This statement chills Robert to the bone. Part of him thinks it’s a sign that he has to break up with Avery.

Does this seem reasonable? Why or why not?

2

OH!..You had me until here.

Here is where Avery isn’t reacting in self-defense. He’s taking the offense, and that, were I a *total *pacifist, would be the deal breaker, right there. Self defense would be if he blocked a punch coming his way, or even punched to incapacitate someone swinging at him. Hitting someone because they hit someone else isn’t self-defense, by definition.

Now would I, in my current incarnation, like a friend or significant other who was physically capable of doing so to handle this sort of situation (which I am manifestly NOT physically or emotionally capable of handling)? Absolutely. And I wouldn’t cry too many tears if the oaf got killed in the process. But I am not a total pacifist, either. (In reality, I’m more like Avery. Violence may be the last refuge of the incompetent, but it *is *still a refuge!)

3

Avery didn’t kill the guy for hitting Robert.

If the oaf had hit Robert and Avery had done nothing, do you think that would have been the only blow to fall, or just the first?

ETA: I’d also say that acting to defend another person who is entitled to claim self-defense is itself justifiable. Though probably Robert would not have defended himself.

4

I put down other, because I don’t think anyone needs a reason to break up with anyone else. If Robert feels he can’t be with Avery anymore then breaking up would be best for both of them. Basically, breaking up doesn’t have to be a reasonable response. I tend to side with Avery in the hypo, but that’s just me. If Robert feels he can’t be with another non-pacifist, that’s his right. He should have realized this when he started dating Avery, though. In your story, Avery makes his attitudes pretty clear.

5

Clearly we all have the right to break up with our lovers for whatever reason we choose. But it doesn’t follow that all motives for breaking up are reasonable.

Consider a different couple, Rhonda and Alex. They’re dating exclusively and on the road to marriage, but have never had sex, because Alex feels very strongly that sex is only allowable in marriage; he himself is a virgin and only willing to marry one. He learns that Rhonda, long before they met, was raped; this was her only sexual experience. Alex decides for that reason to break up with her as she is no longer pure in his eyes. Of course he is allowed to do this; he can break things off for any reason. But he’s still an asshole (and Rhonda is still better off without him).

6

This is where I stand, as well. Robert’s feelings are his own. No one can force Robert not to feel differently about Avery now. No one can say, “You can’t feel that way; you have to feel this way!”

I don’t think Robert’s feelings toward total pacifism make the most sense to start with, but I respect his dedication to it and his willingness to put his life, and his love life, on the line for it.

Sucks for Avery since he didn’t, in my eyes, do anything wrong. But, you know, we aren’t entitled to having someone love us and want to be with us. It’s about love and compatibility and meeting the other person’s needs, not about our rights.

7

To me, the last part of your last sentence makes the break up “reasonable.” All women, in my opinion, are better off without Alex. That makes any break up that involves him reasonable.

8

Exactly. If my husband woke up tomorrow with a totally irrational dislike for blue eyes and it didn’t pass with time, I’d rather he dump me than spend the next 50 years disliking me but staying because he doesn’t have a good enough reason to go.

This changes if the couple has kids. Under those circumstances, I think you have a responsibility to try to stay and to overcome any irrational distaste you may have developed for the other person. If you can’t do it after a decent amount of time, you have a responsibility to find someway to minimize the effect on the children.

So if they have kids, I think Robert has a responsibility to them to try to move past/accept it. But if they don’t, I don’t think he has any such obligation to the relationship itself.

9

This. Anyone is justified in breaking up with another person if they feel they don’t want to be with them anymore.

But, that doesn’t stop me from thinking Robert is pretty silly. Had Avery killed for vengeance, then that Robert would be completely understandable in breaking up with him. Had Avery set out to kill the oaf when he was defending himself, I’d find Robert’s break-up to be comprehensible. But Avery never had the intent to kill. He fought off an attack, getting seriously injured in the process and, as it turned out, killing his attacker. If Robert takes this as an indication of evil, his principles seem to be to be totally out of touch with reality, and in my view, he should re-evaluate. Avery is better off without him.

10

Seems to me that Robert’s absolute pacifism is just as assholish as Alex’s insistence on “purity.”

If I were smarter or more careful, I’d have phrased the thread question as something like “Is Robert a jackass/naif/twit to hold his opinions?” Ah well.

11

Given the poll options it seems to me that this isn’t so much a question of whether breaking up with Avery is reasonable, but whether Robert’s uber pacifism is reasonable.

I have no respect for Robert. Given his beliefs he wouldn’t have been willing to justify the use of violence to protect Avery if their roles had been reversed and that’s pretty fucked up.

12

If a man is choking my wife and I punch him in the kidney to get him to stop I am taking defensive action. Of course it’s still not self-defense it’s defense of a third party.

In the scenario presented Avery didn’t kill anyone until he was attacked by the bigot with the knife. Clearly self-defense.

Avery is better off without Robert.

13

I don’t consider Robert’s pacifism as assholish. He is at least judging Avery for something Avery had some control over.

To put it into a different context: Gary is pro-life and married to Mindy. Mindy becomes pregnant. There’s a pretty sharp distinction between 1. Mindy has a miscarriage against her will and 2. Mindy has an abortion for what some or most people would consider good reasons. Alex is blaming Rhonda for something akin to 1. Robert is blaming Avery for something akin to 2.

14

Robert is welcome to his ideals stupid or not. He can certainly chose to dump Avery because dating someone capable of killing a human being bothers him. It is reasonable for him to chose who he wants to date.

15

Yes, but he’s judging Avery for performing a good act. That’s even worse than blaming him for something outside of his control.

Robert is a coward who relies on others to protect him, and hates them for it. Breaking up with him was the best thing that ever happened to Avery.

16

He doesn’t consider it a good act.

I live in Amish country. I know from pacifism. They don’t want you to kill to protect them if they are real pacifists, and real pacifists exist.

I don’t agree with true pacifism, but you can’t just say, “It’s a good act!” and expect a Robert to agree with you when it defies what they fundamentally believe.

17

Sorry I have rather an annoying hotbutton over this - I got the shit beaten out of me for 3 months until I could save the money to get out by an exfiancee because 'I aborted ‘his’ son".. when I was in the hospital after having the fetus die inside me, and have to have it removed which also put me on dialysis for 6 months …

And Robert is being a total butthead in not recognizing that sometimes other people s actions will force someone into performing something that one normally would avoid. I happen to be [personally, meaning for ME not for anybody else] a pro lifer that happens to believe in that particular choice needs to be left up to the individual person.

18

They need to dump each other. My personal view is that Avery had every right to his actions, but they both knew what they were getting into when they agreed to shove that particular issue into the background. Now, they’re in a situation where they’ve had to deal with it head-on. They’re incompatible in a way that will now be a part of their lives forever, and I somehow suspect that Robert is never going to be at peace with it.

Love, while wonderful, doesn’t solve all problems in a relationship. And this seems like a big one. Maybe they’re better off going their separate ways.

19

“Avery takes offense to this and tells the oafs to shut up”

If you’re a pacifist you’re not going to want to be around people who do this kind of thing in bars. The incident didnt come out of nowhere, and the end result was probably avoidable from a pacifist perspective. At the ultimate point it may have been self defense but a lot went on before it got to that point that Robert will not have been very impressed by either.

Robert didnt ask to be ‘defended’ verbally, and Avery expressly overrode his own beliefs by speaking on his behalf for him, and could have been viewed as needlessly provocative. It sounds like that will be an ongoing problem from a belief perspective if he keeps deciding to defend him, even if things dont always escalate.

Otara

20

Are you a pacifist?

Do you think it likely that the oafs (whom I should have given names to, but it’s too late now) would have done anything differently if Avery HADN’T told them to shut up? He didn’t toss them from the bar, after all; the bouncers did. Moreover, they were clearly tryin gto start something; and given that they waited in ambush for the loving duo, A & R leaving first might well have resulted in the Oafs following them outside.