Sounds like the two are incompatible at a fundamental level. Robert’s way of thinking just doesn’t compute in my world. Avery ain’t gonna change what he is. Not sure he could if he wanted to. Robert can’t handle that…well…there’s the door.
If the point is that Robert is an asshole for having pacifist beliefs, that’s another thread. I agree with you 100% that absolute pacifism is an immoral belief. But people hold all sorts of beliefs you and i consider immoral. If someone holds a belief that’s important to them, they are under no obligation to date someone who holds incompatible beleiefs. In this example, Alex is perfectly justified in breaking up with Rhonda.
In fact I’ll Godwinize this thread. Let’s say Joe and June are dating. Let’s say they’re both WASPs. Let’s say June believes in the absolute supremacy of the “Nordic” people. Then she hears Joe saying “Damn, Jerry Seinfeld and Chris Rock are smart funny people.” She is completely justified in dumping him on the spot. The fact that her beliefs are abhorrent to any sane person is irrelevant.
I don’t understand trying to divorce the two. If your beliefs are abhorrent, then acting upon them is immoral. What, do you think a sociopath gets bonus points for murdering someone if it’s not against their conscience?
That said, I don’t believe absolute pacifism is itself immoral. But I do reject the idea that one has to break up with someone. Robert is choosing to do so. If he didn’t really want to, he would create some sort of rationalization. That’s what humans do.
He is choosing to value his pacifism more than his lover, and that is his option. But I wouldn’t blame Avery for being upset. And I would be too if Robert frames it as not being his choice.
Actually, under Spanish law yes it is self-defense, by definition. The law simply doesn’t have a term for “third-party defense”.
Would I break up with Avery for that? No. Should Robert stay in a relationship which doesn’t work for him any more? Neither. Whether I would agree with his reasons or not is as irrelevant as my taste in bridal clothes is for every bride in human history.
You and I both know you mean should here.
I don’t know that he meant should, Skald. A fundamental viewpoint like ‘violence in self-defense is permissable’ or ‘violence in self-defense is not permissable’ is not an easy thing to change. It’s kind of like religion; I can’t just decide to suddenly believe in a god, just because someone else wants me to.
I was mostly joking with Oak, Oy!. He and I have very similar reactions to a lot of things. If I had written that sentence, I would have meant should (though I’d probably have phrased it the same way).
Sorry.
Never apologize, dear, it’s a sign of weakness.
The proper response was, “I don’t care what you CLAIM to have MEANT, asshole. Only what you ACTUALLY SAID COUNTS.” It comes off better if you can say it with smoke curling around your lips, but the fricking surgeon general has made that all but impossible.
Anyway I can’t accept your apology as I was not offended. I’ve sent you some imaginary cookies instead.
I feel, always apologize. Better to have others think you are weak, and surprise them.
Avery can do much better. Dump Robert for the jerk he is.
They are not a good couple. One of them reacted appropriately at every stage to an increasingly violent confrontation, responding to force with appropriate force, and one of them is Robert.
Robert’s an idiot, and Avery is much better off without him.
I’m not completely sure that’s true. Though I still think the confrontation at the car would probably have happened no matter what Avery did, he did escalate just-a-tiny-bit by telling the yokels to shut up. He’s still at least 99% blameless, though.
He escalated it more than a tiny bit. That they were attacked is still not his fault, but he didn’t respond in the best way, either.
Do you think that the drunk oafs would have stopped if Avery had ignored them entirely, or escalated themselves out of a desire to get a rise out of someone?
I think that most of the time “I had no choice but to fight them!” is untrue.
You left out _____, and I most certainly will not call you Mahatma, not the same title Gandhi had. Sorry.
How is there a right or wrong in this scenario at all? Everyone did or is doing what they thought they had to. If Avery cannot live with this relationship, how is it right or wrong to break up? We all in the course of our lives must decide what is acceptable to us. And the brutal killing of another person right in front of one’s eyes might seriously bother anyone who wasn’t a pacifist, too.
If I’d given that particular wisecrack more thought, I wouldn’t have used it. It’s akin to mocking Christ or Muhammad. I apologize; I should have been more considerate.
(I assume you meant to type “if Robert cannot live…” since he is the pacifist contemplating a breakup and will proceed from that assumption.)
The question is really “Does Robert’s decision make you think less of him?” not “Does Robert have the right to make the decision he is contemplating?” In a thread I am too lazy to search for, I have argued that the right to decide whom one will not be romantically involved with is so basic that it is impossible for it to be wrong, even if the motives are odious. But just as I’d think less of a black Christian who categorically refused to date Jews because Jews murdered Christ (a not uncommon sentiment in Pentecostal churches), I think that Robert’s choice betrays a disconnect with reality.
But then, as I’ve written elsewhere, I judge absolute pacifism to be chimerical and egoistic moral system. Moreover, if it’s the sort of pacifism that allows for calling 911 when you’re in danger of violence – i.e., recruiting others to do violence on your behalf – such pacifism is immoral as well.
The thing is though even if you believe in self defense as a last ditch option, a person might find some of Avery’s earlier responses problematic because they removed choices from Robert in how to respond. Not everyone handles drunks with ‘shut up’ as an initial response.
In my view the pacifism aspect is more a red herring than anything.
Otara
Yeah, I’m not a pacifist, but I wouldn’t be able to just shrug off the incident. It would be very traumatic, more so if I felt that Avery had choices and that someone died “because” of me. Yes, he died because he was a violent asshole, but I would feel like it was more personal than that.
I might need therapy. Robert might need more than that.