Yeah, you’re probably right about Big Ben. I think Rodgers is on par with Brady and Manning, Brees probably is as well but I’m still a little unconvinced about him due to the system he’s in. Big Ben is a tough one because as a pure passer he’s not even close to that group but his size and ability to survive the rush and extend plays makes him special. I think Rodgers is better than Ben though, because he’s combines that mobility outside the pocket with passing excellence. There’s a bunch of great QBs going right now though.
No you didn’t. You simply sucked Rodgers cock and made me watch. Unfortunately you’re fully entitled to after yesterday.
Well, yes. I’m not sure what the better description would be though. Cassel, Freeman, Campbell and Stafford are “franchise guys” based on that description but I think there’s a pretty well accepted meaning of the term beyond that. Perhaps Cutler can be a “worthy” franchise QB.
I think he’s already a top 10 QB. Here’s my list.
The Top Six in some order:
Brady, Peyton, Big Ben, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers.
7. Tony Romo
8. Eli Manning
9. Matt Ryan
10. Jay Cutler
11. Matt Schaub
12. Michael Vick
13. Mark Sanchez
14. Joe Flacco
15. Josh Freeman
Now, is that list debatable? Sure. I’m probably lower on Vick than most because I think teams will (have?) figure him out and he can’t stay healthy. However, I think a lot of people would argue Eli should be much lower. You could argue that Jay would outperform Eli with those WRs, but Eli has a ring so I won’t. Schaub is a great fantasy QB but he’s won even less than Cutler so far and he’s got better talent around him.
Long story short, people hate on Jay Cutler like there’s 25 better QBs out there for the taking.
I don’t think the jury is still out. The Bears would be a better team with all those players you mention. They need those guys, but they wouldn’t be a better team with those players and Kyle Orton. The Broncos have learned that Orton isn’t the answer, that’s why they are grooming Tebow. The Broncos gave up a ton to draft Cutler in the first place, QBs with elite skills cost. Period.
After yesterday, I’m fully entitled to have you suck Rodgers’ cock. Which wouldn’t change that I was pointing out that good QBs can overcome the excuses you made.
Worthy implies a return on value, so I’d be good with that. Cassel had a better year than Cutler ( more TD’s, less int, higher passing rating), and cost a second rounder (with Vrabel thrown in). Freeman cost one first rounder, Jason Campbell (who is only 2 spots lower rated than Cutler) cost a 2012 4th rounder, and Stafford cost one first rounder.
I’m not going to get into a QB rating debate for the entire NFL (Schaub is wwwaaaaayyy better than Cutler and cost 2 second rounders), but so much of Cutler’s ranking is based on potential and not production, which is kinda my point. When his production lives up to his potential, we can talk with more certainty.
Elite skills and potential still don’t equal production. Until Cutler can outperform even mediocre QB’s (like Orton, who still had a higher passing rating than Cutler), I don’t think his production outweighs his cost. But Chicago has such a crappy history for QB’s, so he’ll always have defenders.
He led the team to an NFC Title game. I’d say that if he never played another game he justified his cost. Living up to potential is another story.
The Bears have a lot of issues. Cutler’s play, as shaky as it’s been, is maybe 5th on the list. And the top 4 contributed to his mistakes at least as much as his shortcoming did. The Bears have been historically terrible at developing and finding quality QBs. What’s overlooked in that embarrassing history is that they’ve perhaps been as terrible at finding competent WRs and OCs, and only slightly better at building O lines.
The sad fact is that the Bears line is as bad as the Colts and their WRs are worse, and everyone saw how Peyton faltered. That takes longer to fix than trading for a competent QB. Maybe, just maybe, Cutler isn’t as far away as people keep saying.
Well then have I got some deals for you then. How about the phenomenal QB who led his team not to just the NFC Title game, but actually won it, and went onto the Super Bowl? You want to give up a couple first round drafts, a starting QB who has outperformed him and a third rounder for Rex Grossman? How ever could the Bears let the QB who “led his team to an NFC Title” win, go for nothing is beyond me. Or you could have Trent Dilfer, who actually WON a Super Bowl, for that.
Ah, Bears fans.
Well, those first round draft picks could’ve been used to solve those other issues. I’ve already pointed out some of the talent that the Bears could’ve had if they kept their picks instead of trading them away, that would have helped solve those issues for the Bears. Part of the reason the WR and OL aren’t so good is because they gave up those picks.
And maybe then he’ll be worth what he cost. Maybe. But, as I said before, preliminary results aren’t in his favor.
Compelling cases could be made against Romo, Ryan and Eli too. That’s not really the point of the list, but I think it’s fair to say that the narrative against Cutler is over the top. If you read the articles without watching the games or looking at the stats you’d think he was positively Delhommeian.
This year, Schaub had 1100 more yards, one more TD, 3 less int’s, 3% higher completion percentage, and almost 6 point higher passer rating than Cutler.
Last year, Schaub had 1100 more yards, 2 more TDs, 11 less int’s, 7% higher completion percentage, and over 20% higher passer rating.
I’ll take Schaub over Cutler any day of the week.
Possibly. But until Cutler’s production matches his “ceiling”, it’s just guesswork.
I agree with this. I didn’t watch the game at all, but all I heard afterwards was how much he sucked, how there was some Twitter chatter from his teammates that he was weak, and how he injured his knee (in that order).
Delhomme’s an interesting name to bring up in this context, given that he’s another who “led his team to an NFC title game,” and he then won it, and then threw for 330 and three touchdowns in the big one. Not to take a position on Cutler either way, but I look very much forward to the day when people don’t try to hold up a series of coin flips as the product of the thumb doing the flipping.
You gonna make the case that this Bears team, with Kyle Orton, Percy Harvin and Anthony Davis would have made the Super Bowl? Seriously?
Hell, if the Bears had made the trade and not gagged on the Jarron Gilbert pick (Mike Wallace 18 picks later) and pissed away a second rounder on the late Gaines Adams (Zane Beadles 4 picks later) they might have punked the Packers with Cutler.
You know what really would have been awesome? If the Bears hadn’t desperately reached for an undersized system QB in 2003 (or he’d had been healthy and proved his suckiness sooner) the Bears would have taken Aaron Rodgers instead of my boy Cedric Benson in 2005. We can play this game all day long.
Fact is, that right now, in the short term the Bears are better with Cutler. The trade was a success. The chances of Cutler growing into a difference maker in the long term is as likely as either of those 1st rounders they gave up doing the same. Then again it might not, but you can’t blame that any more than the rest of the draft/scouting debacles the Bears have made under Angelo.
Must you build strawmen? I didn’t say that. What got you to the NFC Championship wasn’t Jay Cutler. It was a great defense and special teams, staying healthy, catching some breaks, and having the losing Seattle at home for their first playoff game. Just as the Bears who last went to the Super Bowl didn’t do it because of Sexy Rexy. Cutler had a perfectly adequate year, nothing more.
And had the Packers not lost 80+ starter games, they might have gone undefeated, won the Super Bowl, and invaded North Korea and dismantled the nuclear program.
If you call the trade a success now, I think we can put this particular argument to bed because there is nothing that is going to change your mind. If you’re willing to trade two first round picks, a starter who has outperformed the guy you traded for, and a third rounder for a bad season and a perfectly mediocre season from your guy, by all means I hope people like you run the Bears franchise forever. The only thing that makes the trade not a complete debacle is the “upside”, “potential”, and “ceiling” Cutler has, because his production has been nothing but mediocre at best.
What is it with the Bears and receivers? Why can’t they ever get any good ones? A good couple receivers would have made even some of their more craptastic QB’s quite a bit better. No offense, Knox seems pretty good and all, but Hester isn’t DeSean Jackson and I can’t even name any of their other wideouts.
Seems to me they need an upgrade in that area and have for quite awhile.
Orton won all of 8 games last year and 4 games this year. His head coach who so believed in him got fired. Orton is going to be benched or released for Tim Tebow. In what meaningful way has he outperformed Cutler? Is there any team in the league that would rather have Kyle Orton over Jay Cutler?
He’s had higher passer rating both years. He’s been more productive with less interceptions both years.
When the Bears made the trade, you indicated that the fact Cutler was a losing quarterback and Orton was a winning one, wasn’t that big of deal, but now, since Cutler has won more and Orton has lost, you change the goalposts. Could you at least try to be consistent?
I’m not saying Orton is a better long term solution, I’m saying Orton has outproduced Cutler. And he has. And I’d actually agree with you that if the trade was just Orton v. Cutler, the Bears got the better end of the deal. But you continue to downplay the draft picks (which as I’ve pointed out has led to weaknesses on the team being unfilled) that went with them. Schaub, Cassel, Orton, Freeman, Flacco, and the rest were all much cheaper than what the Bears paid for Cutler.
If I were running a team with a top of the line defense, I’d rather have Orton than Cutler and put the savings into my offensive line and running game. Part of that turnover differential is a natural result of their respective skillsets - you’re going to call a lot more vertical plays with Cutler, but that gives him a lot more opportunities to make bad decisions.
What bothers me most about Cutler is that he hasn’t improved. He’s got the physical skills to be a great quarterback, but he’s still basically the same guy he was with the Broncos in 2007. Has there been a world beater QB before who made sudden strides in the quality of his play in his sixth year?
One could note that they do keep trying, but they don’t seem to be very good at either picking, or developing, them.
Looking year-by-year at the last 7 drafts (source: FFToday):
2004
Bernard Berrien (3rd round). He led the team in receptions in '07, but they let him go to Minnesota as a free agent. He’s now a role-player for Minnesota.
2005
Mark Bradley (2nd). Cut early in the 2008 season; only caught 38 passes in 3+ seasons. Did a bit more with KC in '08 and '09, but not much, and was out of football in 2010.
Airese Currie (5th). Never caught a pass in the NFL.
2006
Devin Hester (2nd). Originally drafted as a defensive back and kick returner, though the team quickly decided they wanted to get him involved on offense. He’s shown flashes, though he’s undoubtedly still more valuable to the team as a returner than he is as a wide receiver. It could be argued that focusing Hester on his work as a WR in 2008 and 2009 hurt him as a returner.
2007
Did not draft a wide receiver, though they drafted TE Greg Olson in the first round.
2008
Earl Bennett (2nd). Didn’t catch a pass in his first season. Reasonable production in '09 and '10, though he still doesn’t seem to have really broken through.
Marcus Monk (7th). Did not make team.
2009
Juaquin Iglesias (3rd). Did not make a catch in 2009. Released in 2010, re-signed by the Bears to the practice squad, then later signed by the Vikings.
Johnny Knox (5th). Has done pretty well, and seems to often be their most reliable WR.
Derek Kinder (7th). Did not make team.
2010
Did not draft a receiver of any kind, but, as has been noted, they didn’t have any picks at all until the 3rd round.
The other two WRs on the roster this year were free agents:
Rashied Davis. Mostly a special teams roleplayer (though he had 35 catches in ‘08), he’s been with the Bears since 2005, after 3 seasons in Arena Football.
Devin Aromashodu. After knocking around with a couple of teams, he looked good in spots for the Bears in 2009. He managed to get into the coaches’ doghouse this year, and barely played.
If you look at the top 3 rounds (which are usually where teams figure to get the players who will make the biggest impact), the Bears have drafted four WRs in the past 7 drafts (5 if you count Hester). 2 washed out, one’s with another team, and the other two (Bennett and Hester) are passable starters, though certainly not top-tier (and maybe not even the next tier) as receivers.
Marginally this year, at least partly due to the fact that the Broncos offense is built to maximize that and that they were playing from behind. As you note their numbers are different but comparable. I’m not saying Cutler kicks the crap out of Orton, but saying that Orton has outperformed him after the way their respective seasons has gone is pretty disingenuous. They are a push at worst.
I don’t know what the exact wording was, but the context was clear. That Orton had very little to do with the wins when he was in Chicago. Cutler has had a LOT to do with the wins these last 2 seasons. This team is much less talented offensively than it was under Orton and last year the defense was riddled with injury. The Bears won in spite of Orton when we had him, the Bears win (and lose) because of Cutler. That said, it’s not fair to blame Orton for the Broncos losses in the way you can blame Cutler for the Bears. Still, it’s utterly absurd to say that he’s outperformed him on the heels of a 4-12 season that got his coach fired regardless of the numbers.
You concede that Cutler vs. Orton is a win for the Bears, yet you say Orton has outperformed him? Do you see my point or don’t you? Which side of the argument are you on?
The Bears could have used the draft picks. You can always use them. The Bears paid what Cutler cost. Would it have better for them to draft a franchise QB with their own 1st round pick when they had the chance, of course. They didn’t. And remember the Broncos spent a 1st AND a 3rd round pick to draft Cutler. The Bucs used a 1st and a 6th rounder for Freeman. The Ravens spent a 1st, 3rd and 6th rounder for Flacco. The Texans spent two second round picks and traded back in the 1st round to get Schaub, an unproven backup at the time. The Jets spent a 1st and a 2nd for Sanchez. The Broncos, after the Cutler deal and seeing Orton play, spent a 2nd, 3rd and 4th round pick for Tebow. The Browns spent a 2nd and a future 1st for Brady Quinn! All of those deals, when you factor in the 1 round depreciation are close to what the Bears spent for Cutler when you factor in the fact that Cutler was the only proven commodity of the bunch.
Few teams are lucky enough to have a franchise QB fall to them in the end of the 1st round. You basically have 2 options, spend extra draft picks or be crappy enough to draft at the top of the round. The Bears chose option one and I’m not going to regret that for one second. It’s better than the QB limbo teams like the Redskins, Dolphins, Seahawks, Cardinals, Vikings, Browns, Niners, Raiders and Broncos find themselves in.
We’re talking about since the trade. Cutler had 42 to Orton’s 21. Orton had 41 TDs to Cutler’s 52. Of course Orton’s had 1 OC to Cutler’s 2, and 2 Pro Bowl WRs to Cutler’s 0. Orton led the all important number of benchings too, 4 to 0.
How much can you get for $3M? Orton got a 1-year $9M deal this year, Cutler’s extension paid him $12M per year. Is that $3M going to revamp a O Line and Running game? The Bears tried having a game manager at QB and a great defense. It didn’t work. You always want a better QB, period. And you need to be able to come from behind, something Orton has never been, ever.
He’s incredibly frustrating. I’m sure there have been QBs who took great strides in their 6th year or later. One might argue that reducing your INTs from 26 to 16 in a much more INT prone system, boosting your rating by 10 points and going from 7 wins to 11 and a playoff win taking huge strides. Maybe the Bears will finally convince Cutler to accept a QB coach. Maybe the recently fired Jeremy Bates will come to Chicago as a QB coach. Maybe this Martz experiment will come to an end this off season and a OC who’s system meshes better with his idiosyncrasies will be found.
Elway saw a pretty big jump in his efficiency in his 10th season when Wade Phillips (actually it was Jim Fassell most likely as OC) came along. Terry Bradshaw made a pretty big leap in his 6th season. Drew Brees had some great seasons in San Diego but he took a serious leap when he went to New Orleans with Payton in his 6th season. Warren Moon elevated his game in his 7th season in the NFL. Dan Fouts took off when Coryell showed up in his 6th season.
So, it’s not that unusual, but obviously the kid needs coaching. Maybe we saw the first step under Martz. I doubt it personally, but you never know. More than anything a QB coach is a necessity. I wonder if the Bears can add another former Head Coach to their staff and get Fassell to step in as the QB coach.
I think they got burned in 1993 and 2001 with Curtis Conway and David Terrell and still haven’t gotten over it. They wasted the 7th and 8th over picks in those respective drafts and while Conway played a bit he was mostly a frustration point through his entire career. I wouldn’t piss on David Terrell if he was on fire.
Just for fun, let us mock the illustrious list of crappy Bears WR drafted since 1986 when they fired their GM and went without one until Jerry Angelo showed up in 2001.
2009 - Chicago Bears
Rd Sel # Player Position School
5 140 Johnny Knox WR Abilene Christian
7 251 Derek Kinder WR Pittsburgh
2008 - Chicago Bears
3 70 Earl Bennett WR Vanderbilt
7 248 Marcus Monk WR Arkansas
2007 - Chicago Bears
None
2006 - Chicago Bears
None
2005 - Chicago Bears
2 39 Mark Bradley WR Oklahoma
5 140 Airese Currie WR Clemson
2004 - Chicago Bears
3 78 Bernard Berrian WR Fresno State
2003 - Chicago Bears
5 139 Bobby Wade WR Arizona
5 143 Justin Gage WR Missouri
2002 - Chicago Bears
6 203 Jamin Elliott WR Delaware
2001 - Chicago Bears
1 8 David Terrell WR Michigan
2000 - Chicago Bears
3 69 Dez White WR Georgia Tech
1999 - Chicago Bears
3 71 D'Wayne Bates WR Northwestern
3 78 Marty Booker WR Louisiana-Monroe
7 221 Sulecio Sanford WR Middle Tennessee State
1998 - Chicago Bears
None
1997 - Chicago Bears
4 108 Marcus Robinson WR South Carolina
1996 - Chicago Bears
2 52 Bobby Engram WR Penn State
1995 - Chicago Bears
4 116 Jack Jackson WR Florida
1994 - Chicago Bears
None
1993 - Chicago Bears
1 7 Curtis Conway WR USC
1992 - Chicago Bears
None
1991 - Chicago Bears
5 134 Anthony Morgan WR Tennessee
1990 - Chicago Bears
None
1989 - Chicago Bears
None
1988 - Chicago Bears
1 27 Wendell Davis WR Louisiana State
1987 - Chicago Bears
2 54 Ron Morris WR Southern Methodist
WOW! And you thought their run of QBs was pathetic! I’m not sure the Bears realize that most teams dress 6 WRs every game and typically have 3-4 of them on the field every play. You’d think you’d at least try and average one per season when you’re drafting. Remember before 1992 there were 12 freaking rounds.
They had a nice little run there in 1996 and 1997 with Engram and Robinson, so good on you Wanny. I wonder what Jamin Elliott is doing these days.
This is a false equivalence, and ridiculous on its surface. You’re implying that Good Rodgers is no more reliable than Good Cutler, and Bad Rodgers is just as likely to show up as Bad Cutler. This restating of your position is also insanity.
This is pretty fair. I’d combine Tier 1 & 2 and kick Rivers up into it, and kick Ryan down and Eli up into tier four (now 2):
I think this is pretty fair as well. I might swap Ryan and Romo, and kick Schaub up ahead of Eli, but for the most part the specific ordering between 7 and 14 is picking nits.
Fine. So far, Cutler v. Orton is a push in production.
How’s about those draft picks?
It still hasn’t sunk in? I’ve repeated it numerous times for you.
Oh yeah. Bears fan.
Here it is again: A good part of the “value” of Cutler is his perceived “potential” or “upside”. While Orton has been more productive so far, Cutler still has more value because of that perception. What I have been consistently saying is that that it’s now been two years into the trade, and that “potential” is still not realized. And I’m not sold it ever will be.
When you say stuff like: “I’d say that if he never played another game he justified his cost,” it’s catastrophically silly. Of course he hasn’t. He hasn’t even outproduced the QB you traded for him, let alone the draft picks. The issue is whether or not his potential weighs the trade in the Bears favor. So far, I don’t think it has. You disagree. But, to my mind, the early results aren’t in your favor.