Paging Jehovah's Witnesses and bible scholars: need a few things cleared up

Great Debates
1

I’ve got a friend at work who’s a JW, or rather a lapsed JW who’s earnestly trying to rejoin the fold. As a bit of background, I’m an atheist who was raised half-heartedly Catholic, so while I have some very general familiarity with Christian ideology and the bible, I certainly don’t approach even a mediocre JW when it comes to scripture knowledge.

We got into a discussion today regarding a couple things, and I’m having a hard time grasping her bible-based answers. I’m hoping another JW can come along and clear it up for me from a JW point of view including bible cites.

First, I asked her if the JW’s worldwide do much in the way of “good works”. She says that Jesus doesn’t tell them to perform acts of charity in the manner of soup kitchens or homeless shelters, that Jesus never told them to take care of the impoverished, just to go out and “spread the word”; they have no responsibility to provide care or succor to anyone outside the group. Are there really bible cites for this? This concept goes completely against every understanding I have about “whatsoever you do for the least of my people” and so on.

Secondly, she talks about the bible proscription regarding going to war–that JW’s don’t go to war under any circumstances. She says there’s no gray area there; no matter how good the cause, they will not fight in a war. She says God tells them not to participate in “man’s wars” and that God will sort it all out in the end anyway, that it has nothing to do with them. Furthermore, it extends to all political action, so even if they disagree with war and refuse to participate, they won’t vote against it, or act politically to prevent war-seeking administrations from gaining power. This really kind of pissed me off, because they’d be willing to break their kid’s legs to keep them from getting drafted, but they won’t cast a goddamned vote to prevent the war in the first place.
Furthermore, she says they won’t even do anything to stop acts of genocide or go to war to unseat a bloody despot. Hitler may have been having a good time slaughtering untold millions of innocent victims, but that’s none of their business. They might feel bad about it and don’t like that it’s happening, but God told them not to get involved, and the righteous among the slaughtered innocents will be getting a better deal in heaven anyway, so they just stand aside and let it work itself out. They’re above man’s earthly squabbles. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, they’re all part of God’s plan. “Wait,” says I, “God wanted Hitler to go out and slaughter millions of innocents?” “NO! God had nothing to do with that, it’s all Satan” “So… God doesn’t want you to stop Satan’s rule or do anything to thwart it?” “Nope.”

The last thing is the evolution and creation debate. She does not believe in evolution. She does believe in dinosaurs and is vague on how they fit in. She believes that the world was created in seven literal days, or maybe seven “God days” which may be a thousand years each, she’s not real clear on that, but either way there’s a blurry bit between the creation of the planet and the point 65 million years ago when humans showed up. What’s the official JW line on this? Note: I am not looking for an evolution vs creationism debate, I just want to know what the “official” JW word is on the topic.
She changes the subject entirely when the topic of Homo erectus and H. ergaster come up. My question is this: if God created man in his image, which species did he have in mind? Were Adam and Eve H. erectus or were they the first H. sapiens? Do the JW’s believe that earlier members of genus Homo were not precursors to modern humans? She won’t answer a question about the spectrum of early hominids, but she does absolutely believe that Adam and Eve were a) the first humans and were directly created by God from dust, and that b) they looked exactly like you and me. She also believes that phenotypic differences in the races of modern humans are due to interbreeding between the twelve tribes of Israel, but she’s not clear on where the genetic variation comes from, seeing as how we’re all descended from Adam starting with Eve, and all Adam and Eve’s offspring, brothers and sisters, interbred to create more humans. She’s also not sure why incest was okay with God to get the ball rolling, but was prohibited later on.

She is very clear on the fact that she’s only learning and isn’t a JW expert, so she doesn’t have bibe cites on hand, but is firm that all of the above statements are true per the bible.
Are there any JW’s out there that can clear these up for me? Any bible scholars outside the JW realm have opinions with scriptural citations on the what the bible has to say about any of these topics?

2

:smack:
Sorry, that should have read:
…there’s a blurry bit between the creation of the planet, the point 65 million years ago when mammals showed up, and the point 3 million years ago when H. erectus came on the scene.

3

This would not seem to be supported by the scene in Matthew

For the rest, you will probably need an actual JW expert to understand their position. There are many things in the bible and the cynic’s claim that anyone can find a verse to defend any position is not merely grousing from those who don’t like it. A lot of people can find some sort of verse to defend or promote an awful lot of opinions.

4

It’s true. I am looking for the JW word, but was also hoping other folks very familiar with the bible would pipe in as you did for scriptural refutations of any of these statements. I am familiar with the quoted passage and asked her about it at the time. She said that if needy people came to the Witnesses and asked for charity, they wouldn’t be turned away, but that they won’t go out and do good things just for the sake of doing good things.

5

I think the best answer for you would be a real live JW; who can answer for you. Your friend by her own admission is still learning, and if she has been away for a while may not be proficient in her answers.

Other than a RL JW, I would suggest the official JW website: www.watchtower.org

As to your friend, she may be somewhat mistaken, or perhaps isn’t able to formulate her answers as clearly as she would like.

Regarding your points, you have so much in the OP that any one of them could have it’s own lengthy thread. (with splinter topics in each one of them)

So, at 30,000 feet,

  1. JWs do, in fact, do “good works”. JWs consider the preaching work to be the primary reponsibility of Christians** (Matt 28:19-20 and others)** and is in fact a “humanitarian” work. The preaching work has radically changed the lives of millions for the better. In addition to the text Tom cited, there is the example of the “Good Samaritan”, (Luke 10:29-37) Jesus feeding of the poor (Matt 14:14-21, 15:35-39) and other accounts of his concerns for others. James said at James 2:14-17, “14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (NIV)

And so JWs, both individually and as an organization, help others. It is common for JWs to expend their efforts to their fellow believers, however, it is common as well to offer help to others. In the aftermath of natural disasters, for example, JWs have along history of assisting JWs and non-JWs alike.

So I would respectfully say that she is perhaps not articulating hew views clearly, or she is [partially] misinformed. It is true, that JWs place great emphasis on the preaching work. JWs believe that the greatest command given to those who would be followers of Christ was to be evangelizers. (as completely distinct from the “evangelical movement”, of which JWs have no part) JWs take seriously the command, “keep seeking first the kingdom” Matt 6:31-34 JWs seek to follow those commsions given by Christ and to follow the examples of the apostles, whose primary work was to “spread the good news about the kingdom.” So…while JWs are active in humanitarian work, you will not see a JW soup kitchen, nor a “United Way” type fund drive. JWs recognize the need for basic food and shelter and often provide help in these areas. But, they believe the greatest positive impact that they can have on society is to teach people about Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ.

I will answer the other items as I’m able.

6

:confused:

Where do you get the idea they’d break someone’s legs? Jehovah’s Witnesses have been imprisoned for refusing to serve in almost every country, and literally thousands have been killed, and i have never heard of anyone
breaking their own or someone else’s legs. Indeed self harm is one of the cardinal sins for JWs to the extent that simply smoking is an offence worthy of excommunication.

A rather ironic example once you realise that JWs were amongst the millions that Hitler slaughtered, and they were slaughtered in large part precisely because they refused to serve in the military or to actively support the party. If it wasn’t the JW’s business then it was certainly not anyone else’s.

The rationale behind this is based upon the story of Peter attacking a soldier with his sword when they came to arrest Jesus. Jesus’ response was basically that he could damn well defend himself if things weren’t going how he intended and that he neither wanted nor needed humans taking up the sword to fight his battles for him. Exactly the same principle: Jesus can fight his own battles, and he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

While I can’t agree with the JW interpretation on not serving in the military I can’t help but endorse the idea the Jesus didn’t want humans taking up the sword to fight on his behalf.

Officially they believe that the Earth is of unspecified age. It could be 7, 000 years, it could be 7 trillion years, they really don’t care. Current science says it’s about 6 billion and they are happy enough to believe that. They don’t believe the Genesis days are of any specific length, but are just what they term “creative periods” of arbitrary length.

They do believe that the general thrust of Genesis is correct but aren’t real hung up on the details. For example sea life was generally created before land life, but they won’t dispute that whales appeared long after insects. The story is meant to be a brief outline, not a specific list inclusive of every niggling fact. This gives them a lot more wiggle room than your garden variety fundie when it comes to reconciling facts with mythology.

They don’t believe in evolution. They believe that all organisms were created fully formed an functional by God. They also believe that God had an ongoing creation program and created and destroyed many organisms long before humans were created. The dinosaurs were one of these early attempts. In short they will happily accept that dinosaurs lived 10 million years ago and died out 40 million years before the first humans. No humans and dinosaurs co-habiting for them.

Probably the single biggest conflict with science is the adamant belief that humans are only 6, 000 years old. No room for non-literal interpretations here, Adam was the first man and they know down to the year when he was created. He was created fully functional and identical in every way to modern humans.

Quite simply Jehovah created two members of the species Homo sapiens sapiens and that was his only act of cretaion of humans. JWs don’t dispute H. habilis or Australoipithecus fossils as such, or their age, they simply believe they were ‘apes’ and not humans in any way. As such they don’t care about these species being millions of years old.

H. erectus is tricker for them. They normally categorise it as a modern human, possibly deformed, that have been misdated.

The official line is that Adam and Eve contained all the “normal” genetic diversity of the human race, they were mega-diverse. The racial diversity we see today is due to two factors:

  1. Regional selection that has weeded out a lot of that diversity and left only certain phenotypes. Actually given the lack of genetic diversity in humans and the degree of overlap between humans of different races this isn’t completely nuts or scientifically impossible.

  2. Mutations. Yep, JWs have no problems with mutations producing variation, just so long as it’s variation that doesn’t produce “kinds”. IOW they are happy with micro-evolution, even of humans. IOW white people might well be descendants of Adam with defect melanin genes, No biggy for JWs because they are still of the human “kind”.

Not sure where she got that stuff about the twelve tribes of Israel. The JWs are quite happy to admit that people were already living in Australia and North America before Israel was even born.

Quite simply because people then were closer to perfect and more genetically diverse, so no problems with inbreeding. Once again, not entirely whacked from a scientific perspective.

The Bible doesn’t say very much on these topics, and what it does say is largely open to interpretation.

7

Genesis Creation Days- I believe that Charles Taze Russell in his Photo-Drama of Creation taught that the Days were actually each 7,000 years in length, with us
being in roughly the 6000th year of the Seventh Day. Since then, I think there was
some teaching that an Original Prehistorical Creation was ruined in Lucifer’s fall & the Angelic War, with the Six Days being a restoration. The Original Creation included
dinosaurs & perhaps even advanced hominids, but not true “humans”. I’m not sure what the official position is now.

8

Well, from her, actually. I said “what do you do if your kids get drafted?” She said “break their leg” in a laughing sort of way, but since has mentioned it again. I figured it might be hyperbole, but with faced with no other option, perhaps plausible? The point I was trying to make, anyway, was that she was insistent on absolutely no military service yet wouldn’t speak out against military action in the first place with a vote. Multiple million JW voices might have swayed elections, no?

My point exactly. I can understand not getting involved in “worldly” conflicts like certain battles over oil and middle east real estate, but when it comes to stopping genocide the idea that it’s God’s plan to let Hitler reign unchecked and do as he would, slaughtering millions of “His people” is… hard for me to stomach. Didn’t Jesus want us to protect and defend the innocent? She says they’re used to persecution and it’s just a fast road to resurrection anyway, so I guess from that point of view it makes sense.

Thanks so much, that’s all really helpful.

Actually, that clears up another point, too. We had a discussion about evolution in the bible–my point was that evolution says nothing regarding the existence or non-existence of God, and that God could have very well created the primordial soup and set the whole thing in motion with a big bang. It’s my understanding that Genesis is God’s story to Moses about the creation, and that as a man living thousands of years ago, Moses couldn’t possibly have understood the concepts of microbiology and genetics and so on. If the message that God created humans in his image was the important part of the story, then why would God muddy up the message with a lot of scientific details beyond Moses’ ken? Like a father delivering a parable to a small child, it seems perfectly plausible to me (as a non-believer) that the Genesis version could be a foggy allegorical version of evolution.
Her response to this was that Moses was perfect, or far more perfect than we are, and that if that was how it had happened, God would have given him the story straight up with precise and in-depth details and would also have imparted him with perfect understanding to grasp it all. The idea that Moses was “stupid” or couldn’t understand something was laughable. At the time I assumed he was perfect because he was God’s chosen messenger, but you’re saying humans in general were more perfect in the beginning from the JW view and that we’re moving backwards and getting “less perfect” as time goes on?

Also, thanks to the raindog, I look forward to the rest of your comments.

9

Item 2…

JWs are not pacifists in the strictist sense. While they live* in the world, they are no part of the world. (* and therefore do not separate themselves as some religious orders, like the Amish, do See 1 Cor 5:9-10 ) (and others)

So the rationale is not the account of Peter wielding his sword, (Matt 26:51-52) as much as it is one of keeping separate from the world. (Jas 1:27).(John 15:18-19)(John 17:14-16)(1 John 2:15)(John 17:6) **(and others)**The same belief that keeps a JW from fighting in a war is the same belief that keeps one from voting, or participating in worldly politics. The NT biblical cites for this are numerous. Jesus, upon leaving the wilderness after his baptism was confronted first by Satan. Among his offer was all the kindoms of the world. (interestingly, Jesus did not dispute that Satan had them to offer) Jesus declined. (Matt 4) On another occasion, Jesus was siezed by crowds wanting to make him king. Jesus fled. (John 6:14-15)

The bible indicates that the world is in the ‘hands of the wicked one.’ (1 John 5:19)(and others) As a result, Christians were admonished to be part of the world to the extent they were to tell people about Christ and his kingdom and offer humanity the hope of a different life; a different world.

In practical terms, this meant that the followers of Christ saw themselves as living in the world but separate from it’s influence and practices. There are no NT accounts where Christians took part in worldly wars, or involved themselves in politics. Can one imagine a “Braveheart” like Christ taking part in a Jewish insurgency to remove the yoke of Roman domination? Rather, Christians were to obey the laws of the land and to be good citizens; to “pay Caesars things to Caesar.” (Matt 22:15-22) Paul reiterated this at Titus 3:1-2 when he said* “1Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and to show true humility toward all men.”

This meant that early Christians would not hold political office or serve in the military. The book, On the Road to Civilization–A World History says in part, *" Christians refused to share certain duties of Roman citizens. The Christians…felt it a violation of their faith to enter military service. They would not hold political office. They would not worship the emperor."

  • The Encyclopedia of Religion states, "The early church fathers, including Tertullian and Origen affirmed that Christians were constrained from taking human life, a principle that prevented them from participating in the Roman Army."

The book The Early Church and the World said, “Up to the reign of Marcus Aurelius at least [161-180 C.E.] no Chritian would become a soldier after his baptism.”

There are many other credible cites to show that the earliest church took a position that Christians could not, and would not, take another life through warfare. It was not until the 4th century (roughly) and much later that Christian churches took the position that wars could be justified. (The Just War Doctrine being one of them)

At any rate, JWs feel that these doctrines are terminally flawed and have no [credible] biblical basis. It is inconceivable to a JW that he would give his allegiance to the state, and subordinate his service to Jehovah God. You may be irked by the fact that a JW won’t be shoulder to shoulder with you in the fox hole, but I can assure you that the bullet that fells you from across the battlefield won’t come from a JW rifle either.

To see more texts that speak to the view that JWs have toward the state (and by extension military service) see Eccl 10:20, Acts 23:5, 1 Pet 2:17, and Romans 13:1-7.

10

A word of warning: You appear to hope that the Jehovah’s Witness religion will ultimately make some sense to you. It won’t. For the most part, JW is pretty much fundamentalist lite, except for a few utterly illogical quirks that most JWs can’t even explain satisfactorily. And some JWs adhere to “old” beliefs (blood transfusions are utterly verboten, for example) and the newer, “enlightened” beliefs (transfusions are OK as long as required to save a life.) You won’t get consistent explanations across the spectrum of believers, and the oddities for which JW is known will make no sense to you, even after they are explained.

11

I’ll go out out on a limb and suggest you can’t back this up with anything resembling substance.

Would you like to disabuse me of this notion?

12

JW = remedial Christianity

13

NajaNivea, here is a link to the JW page on Religious Tolerance.org. Site has a lot of historical facts and also addresses a few of the controversies and rumors about the practice.

There was a great special on PBS last month called “Knocking” that detailed both the JW presence in Nazi concentration camps and a discussion about transfusions and other medical concerns. There are some video links on the PBS page and here is a short segment from Google video. There are more sections available on Google/YouTube.

Here is a link to a thread entitled “Jehovah’s Witnesses: please fight my ignorance”. As far as some of the derogatory comments in this thread about the practice, **the raindog ** has been very helpful with questions about the faith each time this topic has come up, but the surest way to end a productive discussion with a Witness is to belittle or disrespect his or her beliefs. “Do not yoke yourself unevenly…” is a fundamental credo that directs Witnesses to avoid those who attempt to ridicule or place doubt in the minds of the faithful.

the raindog, you and I have talked before, and I thank you for always being forthcoming and providing thorough answers. Your discussions here have saved me from prying too much into my friend’s personal beliefs, and have helped this non-believer relate to him better.

14

It makes exactly as much sense as any other religion. I don’t know why people single these guys out as being weird. They’re all weird. They may be a little more annoying than the others, with the door-to-door thing and all, but aside from that, I don’t see why their beliefs would trip the cuckoo clock any more than any other brand of belief.

15

I worked with a JW for a few years, he was my boss. A kind, caring man who would help others at any time. He lived his religion. The only thing we would argue about was not fighting in a war. I was in the Naval Reserve at the time. If a JW was drafted he would be trained in a non-fighting job, supply, medic, etc. They did serve their country in their own way. Now that I am older I think wouldn’t it be great if everyone in the world was a JW. No more war.

I don’t pay much attention to what someone says they believe in, their deeds speak much louder than their words. It is not my job to judge, only my job to love.

16

Beaucarnea
I remember our discussion well. In fact, I thought about it for a couple weeks afterwords, and had another thought or two that I wanted to share. At that point the thread had been dormant for a couple weeks and so I let it die a peaceful death. I appreciate your measured and respectful tone, although you clearly don’t subscribe to the same beliefs.

lekatt
Those are very kind words, and I appreciate you sharing your observations here.

Both of you,* thanks.*

17

Hi Mike.

Usually, intellectually malnourished posts like this one are done by ‘drive-by’ guests. I’m assuming you plan to stick around, if for no other reason you’ve ponied up the 15 bucks.

If you’re the one teaching the advanced Christianity course in this thread, I’d like to audit it.

Is that OK with you?

18

Actually I was thinking, reading this thread and talking to my JW employee, that they make a hell of a lot more sense than some religions. My experience with a different Christan denomination is that they do a lot of stuff ‘just because’.

I’ve always found that JWs have reasons for their beliefs, whatever others may think of those reasons. Also in my experience JWs are willing to discuss those reasons. I had a great conversation with my JW cousin about evolution today.

So bring it on, I wanna see the facts here. If I’m gonna work with this guy I’ve gotta be ready to debate him!

19

If Nava doesn’t mind and you have time, I’d like to continue the discussion here.

20

Let’s just say that AFAIK no JW has ever done such a thing, and they have certainly had the incentive in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany. Officially it’s not plausible simply because self-harm is forbidden, no exceptions.

That’s; not to say that individual nuts wouldn’t do this. Just that it’s neither common belief nor church policy.

It certainly could have, but the church has a policy of zero involvement in government because all governments are controlled directly by Satan. By casting a vote for any government they are legitimising that government. It gets very convoluted and leaves a lot of questions regarding making use of government services, courts etc but I can actually see the point. Essentially they see it as Hobson’s choice since no matter who loses you’ve helped Satan win.

That isn’t JW doctrine. They don’t believe in predestination and although God has a grand plan that he will enact eventually he hasn’t started to act on Earth yet. At the moment Satan is free to act however he likes on Earth and as such Hitler slaughtering millions of people wasn’t part of Gods plan, it was part of Satan’s plan.

As far as fighting to stop such acts, it was best described to me by a JW who pointed out that at the time it would have meant fighting for the Communists for the majority of JWs. At the time that might have seemed like a reasonable course of action. History however has shown us that the Communists turned out to be more ruthless and probably killed more JWs than the Nazis. So by fighting against the Nazi genocide any JW would have actually been fighting for the Soviet genocide and moreover endorsing the Soviet system. If all governments are evil and controlled by Satan then you can’t possibly do good for fighting for one against the other. All you can do is lend legitimacy to one form of evil. By keeping out of it altogether then at least you can keep your organisation free of association with them. It’s a fair argument, although not one I personally endorse.

According to the JWs, no, or at least not if that involves fighting for one of Satan’s national armies. Whether a JW chooses to fight as an individual is a matter of conscience, but they can’t form or join armies because armies are Earthly organisations and all Earthly organisations are controlled by Satan.

It does, and it’s a disturbingly common view amongst JWs, but it isn’t official church doctrine. The Bible says that all those who die in Jesus’ name will reach paradise, that doesn’t mean Christians should try to die in such a manner or look forward to it. Nonetheless many do.

That’s exactly what they believe. The Patriarchs lived longer because they were more perfect spiritually, mentally and physically, and over time people have degenerated and continue to degenerate.

Actually the reason why JWs don’t fight to do God’s will, ie fight holy wars, is precisely and entirely due to the account of Peter wielding his sword. And it is fighting for Jesus that we were discussing.

Unless you are a senior citizen then this simply isn’t true. This hasn’t been JW policy for 40 years or more. JWs will not serve in any military in any capacity. Period.