With apologies to Cranky, for her objections to correction posts, this is too funny. Understanderable? I previewed even, really. 
The atrocity in this OP was reported by the Palestinian boy who was tortured, not by Israelis.
I’m glad you asked this question. Others have made a similar point. I do not take that POV because I disagree with it. I believe the moral behavior of the Israelis has been far superior to the moral behavior of the Palestinians. I’ve made the argument by providing a number of specific examples.
Many of you disagree with me on this point. That’s OK with me; you might even be right. But, what bugs me is those who respond as if I had said something offensive or improper. Minty green claimed that the problem was inaccuracies, but I don’t buy that. My examples were supported by cites. If I were merely posting erronious stuff, board members would simply post cites correcting me. So, why is this such an emotional matter for some of you?
Maybe my posts interfere with a world view, which I imagine going something like this: * I’m a tolerant, moral person. A symbol of my goodness is my ability to see the flaws on both sides of the Israel/Palestinian conflict, but to regard the two sides as morally equal.* Under this hypothesis, a demonstration of unequal morality would attack a symbol of your tolerant goodness.
Or, maybe Palestinians are regarded as morally preferred to Israelis, because they’re poorer, less powerful, darker skinned, not traditonally western, or some other reason. However, I do not think anyone on this board is anti-Semitic.
Well, maybe my two theories are all baloney. They’re just something I made up. Still, the question continues to puzzle me.
There’s some truth in the first half, anyhow. Yes, I admit thinking these examples are a point for my side, but I am also truly horrified. If you want to see a picture of the tortured boy’s back and of his mother when she was alive, www.instapundit.com has links. (You can hit Control f to Find, and enter “murder” to be taken down to the links.)
I have to put an opinion in here.
I do not agree with December on many things. But his positions are generally representative of the opinions of a fairly wide swath of Americans. He defends them, does not abandon threads, attempts to represent his position to the best of his ability. At no time have I had the sense that December is playing a game, or intentionally trying to deceive people or distort a position for his amusement.
Banning him from this board simply because his opinions are unpopular, would be outrageous, and not in keeping with what I consider to be the principles of the Straight Dope. We put up with endless discussions of silly things. I think we’re into about our 50th moon landing hoax thread, herbal medicine cure thread, etc. So December has a particular fixation with his ideology and likes to debate it. He is always pleasant, never gets abusive (amazingly so, considering some of the abuse he takes), and in general plays by the rules.
And this thread is out of control, and was from about the third or fourth message. December’s post was little different than the thousands of posts you can find in the archives where someone posts about the abuses of an individual or individuals in a group in order to discredit it. Yet December’s is somehow deserving of spittle-flying hatred? Some of you guys need to take a deep breath and regain your perspective.
My .02
december, do you know which quote from Yitzhak Shamir those who would have you believe that Israel has no legitimate grievances drag out and plaster all over their hateful websites? It’s this one :-
“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war… We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today…”
They - too - publish photographs which document the “atrocities of war”. They publish those photographs with the intention of arousing hatred towards the Jewish people and the State of Israel; and they very often succeed.
One tragedy of this conflict is that whoever publishes the most heart-wrenching stories - and in particular the most heart-wrenching photos - gets their viewpoint and their message a bit more exposure for the moment and a bit more sympathy than the other side. One reason I won’t link to such photos is because while they record actual incidents, they are often presented in a context which does nothing to foster the desire for peace in the Middle East and they are often presented by zealots whose primary agenda is inspiring hatred. Nonetheless, those photos exist and are easy to find if you wish to search for them. (warning to other posters - don’t search unless you have a very strong stomach; on some sites the images are simply THERE, without any opportunity for you to avoid them).
This conflict has gone on for far too long and been far too barbaric for either side to claim any kind of moral superiority, and we in the West far too often get caught up in the “who’s less morally wrong” game which both sides play when we should be saying “a pox on both your houses until you stop this insanity”.
There is no real hope for peace in the region until both sides stop the barbarism, and however sympathetic we might be to the grievances of either side we cannot (and I contend should not) advance their legitimate claims until they cease trying to achieve those aims by such reprehensible means.
You know there once was a guy by the name of Winston Spencer Churchill. In the years prior to WWII he ranted against the tide of public opinion generally anti French and pro German. He continually urged Baldwin and the Chamberlain to take a stronger stand against Hitler in order to avert a war. He was a pain in the ass to his own party, many who wanted to ban him or should I say kick him out of the Conservative Party.
I do not question the integrity of December’s motives for reporting this outrage to us. In fact, I believe we do a great disservice to the Palestinian people by ignoring the atrocities and equating their proactive hate and destruction to the Israeli response strategem. This only justifies their terror campaign in their own eyes, and prolongs the crisis resulting in more and more death on both sides. I was utterly appalled by the group of westerners who snuck into Arafat’s compound when he was under seige, and thereby lending support to him. I can’t imagine how many more people died or will die with this moral support. And by the way, by using the term Palestinians I do not mean all Palestinians.
December, my hat goes off to you sir. The ridicule you put up with, the anger and hatred, the spit and the shit would knock down a lesser man like me maybe. I know you have the best interests of both Palestinians and Israelis at heart despite the ridiculous charges of infantile motives hurled at you.
Take comfort that there are many here who agree with you in this matter, but fear the response that any support for you will generate.
Oh, somewhat ironically, Sir Winston Churchill was a staunch supporter of a Jewish state.
You really think so, grienspace? I’m not so sure.
From here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=128512
Perhaps that comment is misrepresentative of his position. Maybe it is misleading. I find it hard to be sure because he has a tendency to shift the debate at times from what he says are his actual views vs. his conjectural views. But it does make me suspicious that he regards the welfare of the Palestinian people as a whole ( never mind their fucked up leadership ) as distinctly second-place, if even that.
I don’t think he is a ( deliberate, or at least obligate ) troll. I don’t think he should be banned.
But I do find his reasoning and reading comprehension suspect. And I do find some of his stated positions disturbing.
Again, and for the thousandth time, I don’t think very many people do.
Sorry, but they can be equated ( shown as necessarily or properly associated ), even if they are not equivalent ( equal in force or amount ). One sides’ worse actions do not make your bad ones any more palatable.
I consider myself to be mildly pro-Israeli if anything, but to willfully ignore that both sides have legitimate grievances, even if you think one side has many more legitimate grievances, is to be willfully blind.
- Tamerlane
Grienspace…
You just compared december to Churchill?¿? One of the greatest men in the history of mankind?¿?
You compared december who spews so much venom about the UN to it’s prime founder?¿?
Your interpretation of the events leading up to WWII as in context with this thread is gross and utterly misrepresenting – there are even stronger words that come to mind.
Churchill never - read never - spewed any hateful statements about the Germans during the years leading up to the war (for that matter he stayed pretty clear of bigotry even during the war) . He reserved his judgment for Germanies leaders and Hitler in particular. I could give you volumes of examples. In order to keep this short I will instead refer you to his 8 volume biography by Martin Gilbert – if that’s too unwieldy for you try the 800 or so page abridged version which still covers the 1930s more or less week by week.
I’ll give you a quote from his famous ‘Iron Curtain’ speech in 1946 after the war that somewhat illustrate his position:
I kindly ask you… no, I demand you to retract your comparison in the interest of accuracy and the respect for the readership. If not please show me cases of any hateful statements that Churchill made about the Germans in general during the years before the war.
Nobody disagrees here about Al Aqsa we disagree about equating all Palestinians with Al Aqsa.
Churchill?¿? For fucks sake that’s like some kind of reversed Godwin!!!
Sparc
grienspace, you’re wrong. Dead wrong. Not only does december not “have the best interests of both Palestinians and Israelis at heart despite the ridiculous charges of infantile motives hurled at [him]” by inference and interpretation of his posts and his continual wish to highlight every single Palestinian atrocity while ignoring Israeli wrongdoings, but he’s actually said he doesn’t. On several occasions. Your defence is unwarranted.
Sparc, I for one don’t think december is one of the greatest men in the history of mankind. Second greatest maybe. 
Read the fucking report, grienspace. Sez right there, in the first paragraph: “Mr. Sharon was found responsible for ignoring the danger of bloodshed and revenge when he approved the entry of the Phalangists into the camps as well as not taking appropriate measures to prevent bloodshed.” You can argue the extent of his responsibility, but it’s ahistorical to flatly claim that the was not responsible.
Good god, how did I end up taking the anti-Israeli position? Oh yeah, that’s right–the conflict is not the forces of good versus the forces of evil.
And I don’t want december banned either. How 'bout just a warning to stop spamming the boards with news stories and editorials?
People are being pretty nice about not wanting december banned. But he’s corrosive to discussion on this and other topics. The faults in his “spin chiropractor” style of posting have been repeatedly pointed out to him by people who hold positions he purports to support, by opponents, by neutrals and by moderators. It’s pretty plain he knows what he’s doing and he shows few signs of stopping.
I want to be able to read debates about the Middle East and the UN on these boards. I want to read the views of people with whom I disagree, but who act as opponents not enemies. And at the moment december is interfering with that. So yes, I’d like him to stop his current practices. And if he won’t, I’d like to see him stopped (not, of course that banning’s a matter of my or other members’ opinions). We’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here, not coddling it. I’ve had enough of his shit.
Yep, hawthorne - we’re almost at the bottom of page three (here) and I don’t think there’s a single post addressing the meaningless and provocative OP itself…just another complete waste of everyone’s time and effort.
All we’re doing is shouting down ingrained and seemingly pathological ignorance. misrepresentation and falsehood from within (‘within’ being a poster with 3,200 posts).
Nor do I have an awful lot of time for his version of the Wildest Bill quick step (a step back out of contrition, a side step with a straw man and a little half step forward with a hijack of his own thread).
How many times has this happened…?
We’re also about fighting ignorace and december is a perfect example of why “it’s taking longer than we thought.” **
There’s at least one Mod who will disagree with you, or did you miss Coldfire’s posts in this thread?**
Please see London’s and hawthorne’s preceding posts.
and the first thing I find is this:
I think december admitted ^ that Sharon is responsible for the Sabra and Shatila massacres also.
I’ll admit that december is obstinate and infuriating. But rude, crazy, or not representative of a fairly common point of view – no way.
I’ve addressed the article in the OP, albeit briefly, twice. Now for #3, it makes me sick. If I lived in Israel or Gaza, I would get the hell out if it took me every last dime I had. At one time the Zionists were considering Argentina. Hmmmm. Nice weather, occasional rain, oil, ah…
[sub]December, please, for your sake, stop hypothesizing why people hold the views they do. Just agree to disagree and make your case. Psychoanalysis of your opponent is bad form in a debate.[/sub]
I’ve cried out for december’s banning before. I subsequently retracted and apologized. Meanwhile I have grown somewhat fond of him, the same way one grows found of a festering sore after a while as the pain becomes familiar and you can’t stop picking at it.
That being said this is getting ridiculous. Someone please show me how his behavior isn’t trolling so that I can just learn to live with it and stop questioning the sanity of this place.
Sparc
I’ll try. What’s troubling about this is not that it occured, although that’s horrific enough, but that it was carried out by one of the al-Asqua Martyr’s Brigades. This is troubling because the Martyr’s Brigades have direct links to Fatah and Arafat., and the PLA helps fund the Brigades, hiring Brigade members as the PLA security force. I don’t think Arafat ordered this, but the fact that he allows it happen in an organization he funds, has nominal control over, and uses as a police force is troubling and says a lot of bad things about the rule of law in the PLA.
the theory that december is Wildest Bill version 2.3 is mine. 
Yes, he’s polite. But I also believe he’s admitted to writing his OP’s in a deliberatly exaggerated manner to provoke others.
<<All we’re doing is shouting down ingrained and seemingly pathological ignorance. misrepresentation and falsehood from within>>
The OP is true. It’s based on a widely-reported news story. By posting facts that some might prefer not to know about, I am the one fighting ignorance.
<<the meaningless and provocative OP >>
It’s far from meaningless. Even if it were an isolated atrocity, it would be just as meaningful as, say, the horrible case reported last week, in which a young man raped an infant.
However, this is not an isolated case. It’s official al Aksa policy. And, al Aksa is a part of Fatah, which is (to some degree) under the control of Arafat – an important middle east leader.
<<Meanwhile I have grown somewhat fond of him>>
Thank you, Sparc. I have grown rather fond of you, too. I always appreciate your sincerity, although we disagree more often than we agree.
<<Someone please show me how his behavior isn’t trolling>>
As I understand its meaning, “trolling” involves the use of insincere, provocative posts. Many of my posts are provocative, but they represent my sincere beliefs and feelings, so they do not constitute trolling.
Who here has explicitly said that the events in the OP were NOT an atrocity?
They are insincere as you deliberately warp the facts to suit your own little agenda.
This is exactly my problem with you. I accept that you feel very strongly about the Middle East. I greatly sympathise with your feeling that the situation in which Israel finds herself is not sufficiently appreciated. But the way to support your position is with facts and argument whereas you attempt to support your position with distortions and slurs. Your recent posts here suggest (to me at least) that you understand this very well but you just don’t care.
The problem is not that you are insincere in your beliefs, but in your posts. On this Board, if you consistently post things dishonestly or disingenuously even in an attempt to advance an honestly-held, important or righteous belief, people are going to think you’re a jerk. And they’d be right.
grienspace, have you lost all touch with reality?
december=SIR WINSTON BLOODY CHURCHILL???
What the fuck are you smoking?