So, it IS possible to separate bull fighting from bull running, then.
Then why am I silly for doing so? It obviously happens elsewhere, too. Why do you mind me stating that I’d condone a running of the bulls if the animals weren’t slaughtered in the end?
First you state that the two are connected, and that the running is just a means of getting the bulls to the arena. Then, you claim there’s plenty of events where bulls are run, and NOT killed the same day.
Make up your mind.
Maybe you can find some photos in some of these links. I really have to run
What, got a bull chasing you? 
I can’t see where I am contradicting myself but anyway. I hope it is clear to the rest.
OK, point for point.
You said:
So, you don’t care much for bull fighting either, but you accept it as a Spanish tradition. I then reply:
So, I don’t care much for bull fighting either, as you can see. I add that I have no problem with the running of the bulls, as long as they don’t kill the animals afterwards. We’re in agreeance at this point. Again, I wasn’t aware at this stage that there are “running of the bulls” events where the animals live. My only beef (heh) with you here is that you see the two events as separate, whereas I claim that since Pamplona has killed every single bull that ran down the streets for centuries now, they are NOT separate issues. The tradition is: you run the bull, bull enters arena, bull gets killed there (eventually).
Then, you add:
Here’s where things get weird. I never argued that the running of the bulls be banned. I even said I’d condone the rotb in Pamplona, provided they let the animals live afterwards. I’m not some ultra left wing pseudo hippie who’ll put an animal’s life above a man’s (well, OK, in the case of Pamplona, I really do enjoy seeing those idiots get gored :D), but I do think that bull fighting is needlesly cruel. Not so much for the rotb, which can be just fine if a few simple precautions are met. I’m sure it’s stressful on the bulls regardless, but then again, so is living in a 1 by 2 meter crate, which is what happens to most cows in the world anyway.
Anyways. I ask you:
As you can see, I never claimed I knew it all. Your answer:
I have no reason to think you are lying: you probably know a lot more about these traditions than I do. But it proves my point, see? Hence my answer:
So, in short: first you tell me that the rotb in Pamplona resulting in a bull fight is just something where one takes the good with the bad, even though you don’t care much for bull fighting either, and then you state that there are plenty of venues where bulls are run, but not killed.
That was my point exactly: they should adopt that policy in Pamplona.
The emergency is gone now, which just goes to show that if you procrastinate enough things tend to take care of themselves.
At any rate, I had a quick look in those pages and could not find any good photos but I learnt a couple of new things I did not know and which are ironic in their own way.
One is that there are some runnings restricted exclusively for women or for women and children. Who would’ve think it? I guess they use smaller animals and do not want to have the rowdy young men running over the cows, women and children. When I heard about using goats I imagine it was in the context of small children. I don’t have children but I am not sure this is a good idea for the animals or for the children. When I was a toddler I hit the family dog with a plank of wood over the head and decades later i still have to hear about it. Clearly there is nothing I can do to redeem myself.
Another tidbit I found is there are quite a few lawsuits of people who are hurt in these events and then sue the city (and often times win). Clearly Spain is learning from America.
>> That was my point exactly: they should adopt that policy in Pamplona
I don’t see the point. In other cities they use different animals for the running and for the bullfights so the animals for the bullfights arrive by truck at the bullring. In Pamplona they use the same animals. I can’t see why that makes the running in Pamplona unacceptable and the others acceptable.
In Pamplona the bulls run with oxen and the oxen are not killed. The pack is composed of bulls and oxen and the oxen are not killed so I gather you have no problem with the oxen running. I just can’t see why the bulls are any different.
In today’s run two Americans and one Australian (drunk) were gored and seriously injured.
Coldfire:
I am just such an idiot. I would love to do this for the sheer stupid fun and the bragging rights afterwards.
I’d also like to ride a motorcycle again, like you do.
My wife won’t let me do either (actually I haven’t asked her if I can run with the bulls, but trust me, she won’t let me. She didn’t let me sign up for bullride mania either (which was actually a relief.)
She won’t let me because I’m not supposed to die until after I send my kids to college.
But let’s figure this out. How many people run with the bulls at Pamplona every year? 1,000?
The last fatality was in 1995, IIRC correctly. So running with the bulls gives you roughly 1 in 8000 chance of death if my thumbnail calculation is correct.
Now let’s assume that your average bull runner does it once and then that’s it. he doesn’t come back every year and do it over and over.
Bull running under these conditions gives you an additional mortality risk of 1 in 8000.
What is the additional mortality risk for those who ride motorcycles?
My guess is that they are a lot higher than 1 in 8000.
A bullrunner rolls the dice once (or once a year if he keeps coming back). A motorcycle rider rolls it every time he rides.
Bullrunning has a higher risk per event, but a motorcycle rider has a lot more events.
I’d be willing to bet running with the bulls once or twice in a lifetime is a lot safer than riding a motorcycle.
You ride a motorcycle, don’t you?
We all take risks for fun. Does that make us all idiots? I guess so?
Bullrunning idiots aren’t any more special than any other, are they?
As for the cruelty… Yeah, bullfighting is cruel. It’s not the slaughter that bothers me, the fact is that bullfighting is basically just a highly stylized form of torture packaged as drama.
That bothers me some, but bullfighting is still pretty cool, IMO. Sometimes the bull wins.
If people want to call me an idiot for riding a motorbike, they are free to do so.
I’m not sure about the odds you calculated there, and I’m not particularly interested in them either. When I get on the bike, the risks are my own inadequacies and those of everyone else on the road. The odds are a lot worse compared to driving a car, since the bike offers no protection.
Still, I see it in a different league from trying to outrun a pissed off bull for fun. See, if you tried to outrun a bull as many times per year as I get on my motorbike, you’d have a MUCH bigger chance of dying than I do on two wheels. You can’t compare one day of bull-running with a year’s worth of riding a motorbike.
I think Scylla’s point is that it is a personal choice based on the degree of risk and degree of satisfaction. Some people like flying airplanes or hang gliders while you could not pay others to do it. It is a matter of personal preference. Just like some people prefer to smoke even if it increases the risk of getting cancer.
And I think Coldfire’s point is that anyone is free to call anyone else an idiot for any reason. I can’t argue with that either.