Why do you equate giving someone a trial with setting them free? If we have the right people in prison, the evidence we used to determine that will also keep them there. If the guys on the street were a little too enthusiastic about grabbing suspects, the trial will sort out the shopkeepers from the suicide bombers.
We have trials for a reason, and it’s not because we love criminals.
Actually…
So it does sound like our government’s willing to play fast-&-loose when it suits their purposes.
A transparent system hurts nobody. With these secret sites, the worst sorts of anti-American rhetoric are rendered either true (when the eventual photos are released) or possible, since are unwillingness to disclose are worst behaviors can incite the imaginations of our enemies. Why shouldn’t they fear the worst in our actions and intentions when we deny the existence of policies that are obviously being carried out?
Democracy will only work in Iraq (and, supposedly, beyond) if we act as a role model. We can claim we respect their faith, we abide in the rule of law, and that we are above the tactics of those that would unfairly malign us. But when our torture policies obscure the truth, imprison the innocent, and eventually murder those who were unlikely to see the inside of the courtroom anyway, we are simply our own worst enemy and their best recruitment tool.
If they’re terrorists, it shouldn’t be hard to prove that, should it? Or do we just take the Governments word for it so they can be held forever?
Can we detain you in a secret prision for years? After all, you might be a terrorist and endanger thousands of people. Your civil rights are meaningless compared to that. If and When the government says your not a terrorist, maybe in 10 years, we’ll let you free, or not.
Surely you must agree with that, for the good of the free world?
Except that we don’t know who they are!
How hard do you think it would be for Achmed, who’s pissed at his brother-in-law Abdul, to set up Abdul for the CIA? Abdul’s gonna say he’s not guilty, but hey, all those terrorists say that, right? Take it a step further: lets say you’re Osama bin Ghanima. You’ve got access to all sorts of incriminating evidence, because, well, you’re guilty, aren’t you? You would like to have done with a local moderate, someone who doesn’t sufficiently despise America (which, at this point, is probably what passes for “moderate”…).
Why not drop the drachma? If you’re lucky, you might even snag a cash reward from the Americans so you can buy more AK-47’s. As an added bonus, the friends and family of said ex-moderate are now moved solidly into your camp, because the Americans are beasts who don’t care.
Our policies create more enemies than they neutralize. Which is the very definition of “failed policy”.
I can’t think of anything else to argue about. I wonder if it is fear that keeps people believing that this kind of thing is necessary, or if there is something else involved. Why would CIAgents believe this is the right thing to do? Perhaps out of blind loyalty to an administration? Why would government officials believe this is the right thing to do? I shudder to think that it is fear that motivates this kind of behavior. But what else could it be? Does someone actually benefit from this situation? Who? Why?
Wow. You scare me.
Just an FYI, don’t pay any attention to US involvement in Guatemala, Chile, Columbia, El Salvador or Nicaragua. Dead priest? What dead priest?
… 65%
Yikes. Cite?
Well, I’ll give you the “kill children” part. Our bombs/mines/guns do that.
And it is true we don’t seem to mind bombing too much, though from what I understand we actually try for military targets, not to kill civilians.
But the last two I’ll stick to my original answer.
“The USA: Not as evil as Osama bin Laden.”
Not real inspiring somehow.
The U.S. has killed all kinds of children. With bombs. Where’ve you been?
Cluster bombs, mines, bombed wedding parties…
Really ? So our missles and bombs and bullets have child detectors ?
Last I heard, we weren’t even bothering counting the people we’ve killed; that’s why the estimates vary so wildly. Lots of respect there.
:dubious: America is famous for it’s total disrespect of all rights and law outside it’s borders.
I’ve heard lots of gloating over killing in America; I’ve see lots of chestbeating about how awesome and unstoppable we are.
Tell that to Randall Terry and Eric Rudolph.
I don’t trust this administration to even try to distinguish between innocent and guilty, much less succeed. By tossing innocents into secret prisons ( and no doubt torturing and murdering many ), we swell the ranks of the enemy; hell, we justify them being our enemy. For that matter, we are making ourselves into the world’s enemy.
I hate to say it, but I’m with Ghanima here. If these prisons give us intelligence that prevents another major terrorist attack, I don’t really have a problem with them.
Nice Guy Eddie: “If you fucking beat this prick long enough, he’ll tell you he started the goddamn Chicago fire. Now that don’t necessarily make it fucking so!”
We have no evidence that they do, and their existence strengthens the terrorists. Also, would you say the same if they tossed you in one and started breaking your bones to make you confess to your Al-Quaeda ties ?
So far, they haven’t given us shit. Besides, if you beat, break, burn, whatever, some poor innocent bastard, he will confess to something (anything) sooner or later. Besides, indefinite detainment with no trial or tribunal, and torture sure is a great way to convince people our way is better. It really wins their hearts and midns. Yeah. That’s the ticket. Get a clue.
Somehow I don’t think that’s very likely.
You don’t know that.
Hopefully we’ll use better interrogation tactics than that.
Why would anyone care if they thought our way was better? I don’t know if our way is better or not. I just want their plans to kill us in large numbers foiled.
Look, when you deal with an utterly rutheless and determined enemy, you have to fight dirty.
Hey, so long as it’s not you, no harm no foul, eh?
Yeah, like killing them. I’m sure the dead ones are just flowing with information post-mortem.
That pussy John McCain would disagree:
It won’t hurt me, so it’s OK ! Nice moral code you have there.
Hope, yes, but what are the odds given our record ?
So you don’t care if you convince the entire goddamned planet that America is evil ? If some random official in Spain or Brazil or Canada learns of a terrorist plot against us, do you want his reaction to be “Go get the bastards, they tortured my son in law” ?
That is exactly what the terrorists believe.
For the love of Og, Larry, think!
All clandestine organizations…from the PLO to the IRA to the Viet Cong…know the basic rules. If the other guys get your guy, you assume he has told them everything. Everything! You empty every safe house he knows about, change every code he’s touched, sever contact with anyone who’s name he knows.
Of course you do! Because you know what every monster knows: people will break. Take their humanity, destroy their dignity, cause them agony, sooner or later, they break. The only way the torturer wins is if the enemy is too stupid to realize this rule. And they will only need one lesson, even if they don’t!