I also want to say that screaming children, unmannerly dogs, or obnoxious drunks should all be politely coaxed away from gatherings where their presence is causing unhappiness. Those who are responsible for them, who don’t do this, deserve a certain amount of opprobrium.
Heh–check out the post immediately before yours. What may look like punishment in a short description may prove, in a long description, to be pretty similar to what you do.
I’m old enough now that during my own adulthood, I’ve seen children of my acquaintance grow from toddlers into adults themselves. And I have seen children who were absolutely the brattiest, most entitled, snottiest little children that you couldn’t stand to be around, mature into people I am pleased to call my friend.
You never know how people are going to turn out. At some point we all reach an age where our parents are no longer responsible for our behavior, and at that point, no matter what style of parenting we grew up with, it is on our own shoulders how we choose to act in society. A lot of people who were parented in a very shitty and/or irresponsible way turn out to be great adults. (And vice versa, it has to be said.)
Which is my long-winded way of saying that I’ve met kids I don’t particularly like, too. It’s okay. They might grow out of it. I also try not to be too judgmental toward other parents because I’ve certainly made my share of stupid mistakes.
You find her exhausting, clever, and conniving in the brief periods of time that you spend with her. Her parents have to live with her 24/7. She sounds like a very demanding, high-maintenance child. Some kids are, and as a parent you have to learn coping skills and disciplinary methods that work with these kids. Some people have more trouble with that than others. It’s not like there’s a rulebook. And in my experience, no amount of discipline will turn a high-energy, high-maintenance kid into a quiet, easy-going child who colors quietly on his own for hours per day. You can teach kids how to behave in public, but you can’t change their personalities into something else. (Short of abusing them.)
This is true. I think with conniving children, you have to be even clearer in your thinking, as follows:
-What are they trying to get with their ill behavior?
-How can you ensure that they don’t get it via ill behavior?
-How could they satisfy their needs and desires via good behavior?
Sometimes you need to explain this explicitly to the kid. “Because you yelled at me I NEED ICE CREAM, I’m not feeling like getting it for you. If you would like ice cream, you may calm down and, once you’ve calmed down, ask me in a polite voice if you may have ice cream, and that will make me feel like getting it for you.” Then give the kid all the time she needs to fuss and scream, somewhere away from other folks (totally not down with doing it around other folks–that’s just rude), and once she’s calm, remind her how she can ask for ice cream (if she needs reminding), and be so cheerful and loving in response to her polite request.
It’s totally okay if she just asks nicely to manipulate you. I don’t need thekid to feel like an angel, I just need her to develop good habits.
No, there’s no rulebook, and more power to those people who have voluntarily decided to become parents! And I really hope that this little girl turns into a lovely young lady. She is my SO’s niece, and she loves him to pieces, and I would love for them to have a very nice adult relationsip eventually.
Oh, I should say, I don’t expect her to color quietly on her own for hours a day! Fifteen minutes would be sufficient…but as you say, I only see her for brief periods. So maybe she’s just excited at seeing the relatives. The only thing I found troublesome was that the parents didn’t remove her from the (obviously stressful) situation, and I found it interesting that Dad was embarrassed of his kid’s tantrum. I mean, I may think she’s getting past the age of the tantrum, but she’s still just a child, and it happens.
Yeah, my kids tend to get wound for sound when they are around a bunch of other kids in an exciting situation. My 10-year-old is capable of sitting and reading a book for half a day if left to his own devices, but in a party situation, we are practically scraping him off the walls, he is so amped up.
But yeah, if there were a rulebook, I think somewhere on page 1 would be, “When your child’s behavior becomes completely out of control, remove the child from the situation.” After that, what you do is going to depend a lot on the kid and the situation. Do you stay there at the party in a quiet room and have a talk about appropriate behavior? Do you make promises of rewards? Do you just leave entirely? Etc., etc. But it’s hard to handle anything when you have a screaming child in the midst of a big gathering of people.
I definitely get embarassed when my 3-year-old is having a tantrum. It’s especially bad when I’m in a situation where I can’t easily remove him, for example in an airplane. I do my best to calm him down.
I completely agree with the empathy approach, and that punishing never works. Removing a child from a situation should never be a punishment. Preferably they should be able to decide the length of the time-out for themselves, to emphasise that they are at all times in control of the outcome by controlling their behaviour.
Taking a child to a time-out can be done with empathy: “I’m really sorry that you feel that way the moment. We would all really like you to come back when you are feeling better.” The thing is, it’s true! You want them to be there, having fun with everyone else. Tantrums suck, and being away from the party sucks, and having poor control over your behaviour sucks. Learning how to calm down is a great tool, and not a punishment at all.
I would say that an empathetic conversation only really works once the child has calmed down. That’s why I always stuck by the rule of “no discussion during a temper tantrum” (and I really stuck by it: I once gave myself a time-out in front of all the kids!). It may work to surprise them with your reaction once or twice, but on the whole a clear and consistent rule in the case of tantrums helps keep things clear for children.
As I said before: children like it. They like knowing what happens, where to go when it gets out of control. Knowing that they can come back when it’s over and be spoken to properly. And knowing that it will not devolve into confusion and shouting and bribing etc.
I threw spectacular tantrums well into elementary school.
For me, I never made peace with the lack of control that comes with being a kid. As an adult, if I want chocolate cake, I know I can swing by the store on the way home and buy some. When I was a kid, however, I was hopelessly dependent on the whims of adults for every single thing in my life, and it was extremely frustrating. My fits weren’t really about the presents or cake or whatever. It was about the building anger and frustration about not being able to take care of your own needs independently.
I’m always pretty sympathetic to whiney kids. If I were in their position now- short, unable to work, unable to travel independently, poorly informed about how the world works, unable to even choose what to watch on TV- I’d be screaming my head off half the time as well.
I live with that kid! Oh the days of yore, trying to console the troubled tot only to get stiff armed while she runs herself into the ground over some frustration. Today, at 14, still strong willed but in control of her destiny or so she thinks.
Amen, sister! This is why I always wonder why people wax nostalgic for the days of being a child. I wouldn’t trade my current life for that, no matter what. I hate that lack of control. I want to be my own person, even if my parents had more money or whatever.
How old is your child? I guess I would find this cute for a two year old and would assume everyone would simply laugh it off. I think it is commendable that you took the time to use it as a teaching moment.
We had something similar. Opening presents is a bit of a high. The immediate family opened their presents separate from the majority of the family, the day before they came, so less chaos. When all of the presents were opened, the kids wanted to open the other people’s presents that were still under the tree!
Neither of my daughters have ever been much for tantrums, but when my youngest was around four or five she had a particularly tough (but very good!) speech therapist. I could hear her screaming and wailing from the waiting room every week for months. There’s a glass partition so it was visible to all of us there that she was just being stubborn and obnoxious because SHE wanted to play on the equipment when the therapist of course wanted her to focus on what they were doing. She didn’t want to wait until the end of the session. This was really, reaaaally embarrassing for me. One day I broke down, silently but tears were just pouring. Another mother came over and held me and another got me tissue. Knowing those other parents understood how frustrating even common misbehavior can be for us helped me greatly.
Now that my daughter is eight she’s quite mature, but because of the autism she is prone to bursts of compulsive whooping (think of the kid on The Middle). Most people ignore it but there are some who scowl and roll their eyes, as if this was something I could control. THOSE people suck. Just sayin.