Parents that push their kids to perfection

At my work I see a wide range of kids. Our business is popular with families that have overachieving kids. From an academic standpoint, they don’t really need tutoring. Frankly, so long as they continue to challenge themselves in school, I think they should deserve free time. Unfortunately, there are some parents who do not see things this way. Their kids are constantly ‘behind’ in their eyes, and they get punished for the slightest infraction- getting an A minus, or scoring well but not perfectly on sat tests.

It saddens me to see these students work so hard to try to appease their parents. Like villagers sending offerings to an angry volcano god, they work tirelessly to earn praise from mom and dad, but all they seem to get is negativity, and the sense they are still ‘not good enough’. I was an average student myself, but my parents encouraged me to earn good grades for myself, not for anyone else. Their love of me did not hinge on some essay rubric score, or percentage. Thus, when I got an A, I know I really worked for it, and when I failed, I failed myself, not anyone else.

Discussing this with friends, I have heard mixed responses. A close friend of mine despises these types of families, and feels that nothing their children accomplish has any meaning to themselves. Everything they have done is something they were told to do, not necessarily something they wanted. However, a coworker of mine, when asked in private, dismissed it as a cultural thing (in the case of 1st/2nd generation Chinese-American families) and who are we to judge how they raise their kids? My managers are, of course, very ambivalent about the whole thing, because these types of families are great for business (they are members for long periods of time, refer other families, constantly ask if there’s anything new we can teach).

I feel very torn about how appropriate this approach is to child-rearing. Granted, it seems to work well for those that do it. When debating it with my friend, I argued that it might seem harsh to us, but both of us got average grades, and we weren’t pushed too hard. Whose to say we couldn’t excel just as much in that type of environment?

Define “work well” and “excel”. If the kid is miserable all the time, never satisfied with himself or his achievments, then what’s the point of that A+ instead of a mere A. It seems to me these parents are confusing means and ends; a kid is supposed to get good grades because of the eventual good effect it will have on his life. He isn’t supposed to screw up his life to get good grades.

I wonder how many of these kids in later life suicide, or suffer/die from stress related illnesses ? I’ve seen news stories on the popularity of hairpieces for children in Japan, because the stress makes some go bald pre-teen. That level of stress can’t be good for you, much less fun.

The problem I’m seeing is that you don’t seem to know yourself whether you are talking about parents pushing their kids to perfection or parents pushing their kids to excel. Those are two completely different things.

Parents pushing their kids to perfection.

Bad, bad bad. Without exception bad. Nobody is perfect. Any parent who raises a child to strive for perfection is raising a neurotic. The child can;t help but fail to be perfect and so they fail at everything. I’ve seen plenty of these types of kids and they inevitably hit their teens and turn to drugs either as recreation or as escape and spiral downwards. Maybe there are exceptions but I’ve neither met nor heard of them.

Humans aren’t perfect and any child raised to believe that only perfection is sufficient will learn that nothing they do is sufficient.
Parents pushing their kids to excel.

Usually good. Like everything else in parenting this can be overdone, and like everything else in parenting it is impossible to seriously overdo when applied by loving parents. Worst case is the kid gets stressed before the parents realise they are pushing too hard.

A child being pushed to do their best isn’t being burdened with unrealistic expectations. After all their best is is obviously a realistic goal. They aren’t being given unrealistic workloads, or denied a childhood or anything else. All those thing s you fear can happen if the parents cross the line between excellence and perfection. But if all that is being asked is that the child does her best then I see no problem.

I personally believe that far to many children are allowed to just drift, particularly the best and brightest. Our school systems are one-size-fits-none and that means that the best are free to drift through on minimal effort. That inculcates what is to me a bad attitude that if you’re bright you can slacken off.

Worse yet it fails to prepare children for the challenges of higher education where they are suddenly thrust into an environment where everyone is at their level and they can’t just cruise. I’ve lost count of how many students I’ve seen who cruised through high school on natural talent and crashed at higher levels because they had never learned the multitude of skills needed to perform consistently.

Pushing children to excel overcomes both of those problems to a large extent. It also allows the student to develop an honest understanding of where their strengths and weaknesses lie. Many students (and I was one) develop a very lopsided view of their abilities because they were/are never pushed to excel at things they weren’t naturally good at. I assumed I was not much good at writing, for example, because I could only get high Cs in English. The truth is that I was never interested in the subject and put in only the minimal effort needed to pass (which was generally no study whatsoever and papers written half an hour before they were turned in). My English skills are and always were above average but I was lazy and never pushed to excel at English. My fault for sure, but with even a little pressure and a bit more of a challenge and I could have been a lot better.

Your co-worker is right that this is a cultural thing. It’s a very western attitude that mediocrity is alright and individuals should perform only for their own benefit. Other cultures believe that personal excellence is more desirable than mediocrity. They believe that people (including children) should perform out of duty to society and family as well as for personal benefit. They believe that pressure to conform to a high standard isn’t a bad thing, it’s a good thing that gives people something to strive for. Not that western cultures don’t believe those things as well to some extent, they just happen to place them lower than many other cultures.

To make a long post short, parents pushing children to perfection is invariably bad IMO. Parents pushing their kids to excel is usually good, and I wish my parents had done it for me.

But not every student is going to be a straight-A student. It isn’t mediocre to give it your all and still do ‘average’- if anything you have just pushed yourself to do your own personal best. I have had classes where getting a C was an accomplishment, because it took hours of study, dedication, 110 percent of my will, etc. Had I belonged to one of those families, however, I’m sure I would have been beaten with a bamboo cane or disowned or something :rolleyes: . Individuals should work hard for their own benefit, because it gives them a sense of ownership. If they fail, they have nobody else to blame but themselves. This is much easier to cope with than failing and being socially shunned or considered useless to your family.

I couldn’t agree more. In fact this is essentially just paraphrasing what I said above: pushing a child to excellence is a good thing.

One of “those” families? One of what families? What families are you talking about? It sounds suspiciously like you are trying none-too-subtly to cast aspersions on Asians.

But if your intention isn’t such blatant racism then feel free to explain what “those” families are, and why you are sure they would use a bamboo cane?

I agree up to a point.

The first shortcoming with this idea is that if the only ownership is personal then the only reward must also be personal. Few adults and even fewer children are able to work for such a nebulous reward.

The second shortcoming is that in the real world people are expected to work for the benefit of society, their teammates and their families. We have a word for people who are only capable of working for personal reward: we call them selfish arseholes.

While working for personal benefit is important a child also needs to learn to work out of a sense of duty and responsibility if they are ever to have any chance of making it after the age of 12.

I really couldn’t disagree more.

I can’t even wrap my head around the idea that if a child fails at something it is entirely their fault and in no way attributable to teachers and parents. If I were asked to nominate an attitude that will scar a child and destroy all love of learning it would be this this one, not the idea that children should excel at learning.

This is a classic false dilemma. There are more choices than “Work only for your own benefit” or “being shunned by your family if you fail”. Infinitely more choices.

I really don’t need to say any more on this point. It is poor debating tactic, invalid logically and adds nothing to discussion.

There is a lady I know who both her kids were valedictorians of there class, 3 years apart. One night I saw her and she was obviosuly upset. "Chris got a B in gym. He really blew it.

It was his first non-A grade.

Ever.

They were not allowed to go to prom and were not allowed to go to any event that was in “the city”.

It was very sad. They are both in college now, and I hope they are gettin’ laid and drunk, and pulling a B- average.

For there own sake.

Trophy wives ,trophy children. It is a reflection of their success . It is less about the kids than themselves.There are consequences and the children will pay them.

This post is less about grades and more about parents who push their kids to do what Mama or Daddy wanted to do when they were kids, rather than what the kids are interested in.

I used to work at a local theatre - a beautiful historic building. I was assisitant stage manager for “Cinderella”, our Christmas show. The Springer Guild hosted an event for children where the kids could have a tea party with Cinderella and then have their picture taken with Cinderella and Prince Charming on the steps of the castle. There was a very large turnout for the event, and I was running crowd control - keeping the kids in line when the the line got onstage to prevent anyone from getting hurt or damaging the sets. One rather self-important woman had herself and her daughter dresses in matching mother-daughter outfits, a choice which looked adorable on the little girl but was not as fetching on the mother. When the little girl actually got on stage and was able to see the huge castle (which looks strange close up, because it’s not meant to be viewed close up) she started getting a bit nervous and upset. (This little girl was 3 at the oldest.) By the time it was her turn for the picture, she was screaming and crying. She did not know those people in the weird clothes and was not about to go anywhere with them. That mother was a stone bitch. She was so hateful to that pretty little girl - “if this is how you are going to act, I am never ever going to take you anywhere again and Santa won’t ever bring you anything for Christmas.” I was so upset for the child - and I don’t like kids! I was very tempted to tell the woman to go get in the picture herself, since she was the one who wanted it so damn bad.

I think parents who push their children too much and too hard run the risk of having successful kids who never call or come to visit. When the only thing you think of your parents of is pushing and scolding, it doesn’t make for close adult relationships.

Blake, in case you haven’t figured it out already, I’m literally talking about parents that push their kids to perfection. I don’t know where you were confused on this.

Should children get A’s in school because they fear physical punishment when they get home? What if all the feedback from the parent is negative? I feel that kids need to put ownership of their effort in their own hands because that is the only way to meet the (rational) expectations of others.

And yes, this debate is mainly directed toward the parents of such children. I think a parent telling a ten-year-old he/she is a ‘failure’ or ‘stupid’ is far more damaging than harboring a ‘selfish asshole’. I’m talking about kids who feel useless to their families if they do not get perfect scores. Kids who aren’t allowed to be kids, because they are taking so many secondary classes they have absolutely zero free time.

For some of these parents, perfection and excel are synonomous. How do they know they are doing their best, and how come they can’t do just a little bit better? We’ve had a lot of kids with very good grades cheat in order to be one of the many valedictorians of one of our high schools. This girl confessed after she went off to Berkeley, and it led to a firestorm - none of which the parents who pushed kids thought had anything to do with them.

It has other effects. A few years back the school district wanted to move some elementary schools to a new high school because of overcrowding. The new school didn’t have as good test scores (but just as good or better facilities and teachers.) I went to a meeting about this, and the parents were a bunch of fascist thugs, shouting down speakers they didn’t like. The district did it, and the world didn’t end. But it is so important that their kids be the best that they lose all perspective.

I too, hope the kids get a life in college. A lot of the parents want the kids to go close by so that they can keep an eye on them.

I agree, on the surface it seems absolutely crazy and a recipe for disaster. You’d expect American kids to go postal under that kind of pressure.

Actually, my parents put excessive pressure on me, and it caused significant problems by the time I was 14.

In Japan, though, it seems to be working for enough people that their country on the whole benefits - right? Don’t they have a killer economy? I know they make some amazing consumer goods. And you always read about people in Okinawa enjoying extreme longevity. So if the push to excellence makes the top 20% perform even better, does it matter that the remaining 80% are “failures”?

As long as the “failures” can still live meaningful lives and don’t rock the boat, it may be a formula for success (on the national scale).

Or, it may lead to a lot of people beating their kids w/sticks, taking out some aggression somewhere, I dunno.

It’s funny that you’d mention that specific abuse, too; I found out, a few years after graduation, that one of my peers (an Asian) had been beaten by her mother, for the reasons you describe.

I’ve long been curious about the mental health of people in different countries, whether an existence that would seem wretched to us is just fine by them b/c they don’t know any different. Or they might just have different preferences. It’s so hard not to take one’s own “normal” as NORMAL.
I do think that we have a wacky cultural system here - everyone’s supposed to be thin and rich and famous. We worship celebrities and success, money and beauty. Yet the vast majority of us will never get even close. So we spend vast amounts of time and energy emulating our role models - dressing like them, reading about them, buying the things they endorse, and wasting our precious lives being ashamed because we’re not thin and rich and famous.

fessie, from what I’ve heard (sorry, no cite!), the teen suicide rate in Japan is extremely high.

I wonder if the Japanese consider that tragic, or social Darwinism.

Japan has suffered froma stagnant economy and a series of recessions over the past decade. Once it was thought they would be the dominant economic power of the 21st century, but so far they have not been able to overcome the disastrous economic setbacks of the 1990s.

I don’t think the US has a corner on celebrity worship, either.

My understanding is that in Japan getting into the right college is everything. Once there, kids basically goof off for four years. Companies have no problems with this, since they want to train new employees in the way they do things. Getting sorted into the right college is everything.

Um…actually that IS the definition of mediocre. :wink:
You know, on the other hand, maybe when those kids are big time lawyers, surgeons or Lehman Brothers bankers with their Hamptons house and their $5000 a month apartment overlooking Central Park, they might be glad their parents pushed them so hard.

But will they enjoy any of it, if they’ve been raised from childhood to always regard themselves as a failure, to never be happy or satisfied ?

I’ve been pondering this whole thing for quite a while now and I believe that there are some radical and deep seated cultural assumptions that prevent either side from seeing the other’s perspective clearly. And I think that it’s important to see the other side clearly because at the core, theres a lot of valuable understanding that can come from this.

Standard disclaimers: When I’m referring to a cultural group, I’m not generalising across the entire group. Rather, I’m referring to a smaller subgroup which happens to reside largely within that cultural group. All relationships are correlations, not absolutes. Also, just because you can cite horrible examples does not mean the fundamental principle is unsound. Like most things, this is pretty much a fundamentally good idea wrapped up in tons and tons of shitty implementations. Crappy parents are everywhere and they would probably be crappy no matter what they believed in.

Speaking from an Asian cultural background, what I would say is a more accurate description is that it’s a culture of improvement rather than perfection although it can easily look like perfection from an outsider. It’s the notion that improvement, in and of itself is a goal worth seeking and not something that is merely a means to other goals such as money or happiness. And that there exists some platonic goal to improve towards of which any improvement is one to be celebrated. IMHO, this is most evident in Japanese culture where there is practically a national past time made out of improving things and a society that is willing to support it. There exists apples in japan that sell for hundreds of US dollars. Why? Not because they believe a $100 apple tastes many times better than a $1 apple, but simply because they believe that the quest for the platonic apple is something that is worth striving towards and that the appreciation of that quest is what is worth the $100. The same applies to hundreds of facets of japanese life where such dedication is the norm and not the exception. Kobe beef cows are fed beer and massaged daily, calligraphy masters work for many years to perfect their strokes, tea ceremonies, flower arranging, samuri etc etc. I could go onto a big diversion here about how this also manifests itself in the Chinese national exam systems, both ancient and modern but I won’t right now. Anyway, the thing I believe is that what is actually being improved is largely irrelevant, the process is what is important, not the end results.

And so why is this process so important? Because once you stop improving, then your standing still. And no matter where you are, if you are standing still, than others will inevitably overtake you, no matter how long it might take them. From this perspective, of course theres never a “good enough”. Once you believe that something is good enough then where is your incentive to do better? It would be like suggesting to some americans that there is such a thing as “enough money”. Enough money will always be 1.5x what you are currently earning and any suggestion otherwise is absurd.

About the only thing which I’ve found mirrors this philosophy in popular american culture is sporting. Take a look at olympic sprinters for example. If you plot the world records for 100m sprints over time, you could almost fit a trend line to it bottoming out at around 9.5 seconds or so… In other words, the platonic sprint, the absolute limit of what a human body can physiologically do is 9.5 seconds. And for the last 50 years or so, sprinters have been dedicating their lives to slowly and methodically shaving 0.01 of a second off the world record to reach that hypothetical platonic sprint and Americans as a society has been dedicating literally millons of dollars so that we can witness an incremental improvement in the moving of a human body 100m. When you are so deep inside a culture, it can sometimes be hard to see the ridiculousness of it but if you step outside for a bit, that fanatical dedication and obsession over reaching the platonic human sprint makes $100 apples seem perfectly sane by comparison.

So the way to start to get a grasp of what drives this push, then just imagine the mindset of a competition sprinter and apply it to every other facet of life. Would people ever complain that "That kid ran a 9.85, he doesn’t need a coach anymore, he’s good enough as it is. Or that “That kid ran 9.81 and the coach is still pushing him, he should get more free time”. Even at high school levels, it’s accepted that your best is never good enough and that they only way to succeed is to constantly push your boundaries and improve. Precisely the things the OP is complaining about.

And the question to ask is why do americans seem to only hold this mindset for sport and almost not anything else? Why should we not approach math the same way? Why this acceptance of mediocrity in almost every other field, that one can reach a certain stage and then cease to improve? In part, I think it’s because American society allows people to live with mediocrity. You can be mediocre in American society and lead a perfectly comfortable life. Hell, even be celebrated because you’re so “down to earth”. Asian culture is exactly the opposite. It’s only been until very recently that there’s become a burgeoning middle class. Before that, it was either to excel or be poor. But even now with the rise in living standards, a mediocre person with the same physical living standards would be drastically less happy in Asia because to be mediocre is to lose face. Face has always been a tricky concept to explain to people who didn’t grow up in that culture but to lose face is to basically become a pariah and to be shunned by your social network. To not try and improve yourself when you have the ability is a moral failure. Again, I want to note that this only applies really to a small subgroup of people within asia except that this subgroup happens to be a) highly influential and visible within their own culture and b) far more likely to emigrate and so overrepresented in American culture.

This is not to say that either of these approaches is neccesarily better than the other. The American approach seems fundamentally pragmatic. Why should I have to do any better than I neccesarily have to? Doing better is a hell of a lot of work and if it doesn’t net me any rewards, then it is a waste of my time. And while the whole perfection thing works great when you’re judging it against some objective standard such as sprinting times, it blows up massively when you start using relative measures such as university entrance requriements. People work harder and harder to just stay in the same place until eventually the whole system explodes.

And so a lot of this tension among second generation children is this shifting from one world to another. The parents are still stuck within their existing networks of friends and social mores so a child which does not excel is one which brings loss of face and disgrace among their family. To the child, their social circle is American or American thinking and so hedonism and physical incentives are far more important than working hard to please your parents so they perceive their parents as overbearing and outmoded. Both sides can see the massive downsides in the other’s way of thought but both are too deep inside their own culture to recognise it’s flaws.

Anyway, I’m going to stop writing here and get to bed. I hope this clears up a few things for people.

Oh, just one other thing. The very notion of improvement seems to differ between cultures as well. The idea of constant, stepwise refinement and tweaking seems almost quaint in today’s American society. Too slow for the modern world. Improvments must be revolutionary, ground breaking, “game changing”, a “quantum leap”.

So while GM and Ford were desperately flailing around for the next equivilant of the SUV to save them, Toyota was quietly making each year’s model just a little bit better than the previous year.

On the other side of the fence, Apple, Google, Amazon and eBay are all successful American companies because they dared to be different and to try something completely different from what had gone before them and raked it in big.

Wow, Shalmanese, that was really fascinating! Thank you so much! The point about continually needing to improve makes so much sense, even without the element of competition; we’re always growing and changing, aren’t we.

I have a couple of questions for you.

What about kids who have a profound disabiity, such as Down’s Syndrome, whose continual improvement is possible but will never come anywhere near “perfection” in any realm. Does Asian culture support a “Special Olympics”?

And do the people who’ve lost face suffer quietly, or are they drug addicts who rob liquor stores? How do they cope?