Parents, this isn't the time (long).

[Cerri]

In response to the article ** Eva Luna** posted:

“I like the kids running about,” says Farrant, a father of three, including a 2-year-old. “I know what it’s like with a little one. Sometimes, there’s no controlling them.”

Wtf…of COURSE you can control them in a restaurant. They’re fucking children for fuck’s sake. I understand sometimes they’re just rowdy and won’t listen, but for fuck’s sake, for the sanity of not only the other diners, but for the waitresses’s sake, not to mention * the child’s own fucking safety*, pull them out of the thrice-damned restaurant if they “won’t be controlled”.

Speaking as a former waitress, there is nothing more annoying, (and I say that about a job chock-full of possible annoyances) than a child running wild in a restaurant.

It’s not only annoying, it’s fucking dangerous. I’m carrying HOT PLATES full of HOT FOOD, ass munch. If your fucking brat barrels into my legs because you can’t keep a leash on the little bastard, I might feel sad for the little shit when he’s screaming with second and third degree burns on him, but HE’S not the one I’m going to blame for the situation, YOU as the parent, however, I will.

When I moved in with my fiance, his kids weren’t great about being civilized in restaurants. (He was initially afraid of being “too tough” on them after the divorce) They’d frequently use “outdoor voices” and wander (not run, thank gods) around the aisles, get in people’s ways, and bump into waitresses carrying huge trays of food, which usually resulted in me having apoplexy while the poor waitress juggled her plates trying not to drop them on the poor child’s head.

That stopped when I moved in and went out to dinner with them on a regular basis. It only took a couple times of giving my fiance “that look” and getting the food immediately boxed up to go while he pulled them out of the restaurant to sit in the car while I dealt with the food and the bill, for them to learn I wasn’t fucking around, they WOULD behave or we were leaving, plain and simple.

If that makes me a wicked stepmother or a bitch, so be it. At least my future stepkids by gods, come hell or high water, behave when we go out to dinner.

[jjimm]

@Case Sensitive

Hahahahahahahaha. I’m guessing you don’t have kids, then? Telling a child “tough” is not guidance, and doesn’t work anyway unless you want a battle of wills - which in a crowded restaurant is like unleashing hell in a small place.

No, I don’t, and I know it’s way harder than I can theorize - which is why I refer to the program. I think the point is that once the child knows it can throw a tantrum in public, then it will use that technique whenever. She lays the groundwork so that the kid eventually knows it can’t get away with that anywhere.

The program, if anyone’s interested, is called The House of Tiny Tearaways, and is fascinating. It’ll probably get to BBC USA or whatever it’s called sometime. The woman is a genius.

[Rilchiam]

Okay, but is Dr. Byron’s method like what Cerri described [“Behave or we’re leaving”], or is it a matter of not giving them any say in anything [“You vill eat ze ham und cheese on ze vhite bread; zere iss no ozzer option”]? Because I can’t imagine that having a kid completely at your mercy is any better, in the long run, than being completely at his mercy.

[Cerri]

@Rilchiam

Okay, but is Dr. Byron’s method like what Cerri described [“Behave or we’re leaving”], or is it a matter of not giving them any say in anything [“You vill eat ze ham und cheese on ze vhite bread; zere iss no ozzer option”]? Because I can’t imagine that having a kid completely at your mercy is any better, in the long run, than being completely at his mercy.

Don’t get me wrong, behaving in a restaurant or not may not be an option for children under my direction, but I do believe that giving children options can be a generally good thing, BUT, and here’s the thing, it depends on the situation.

The time to give your child choices isn’t when you’re trying to place an order with 10 people behind you. The proper time is to discuss it and find out your child’s preferences before you even get in line, imo.

Giving a child options in a world in which small children have limited options at best can be a very empowering thing, which, as i said, can be generally a good thing. The stipulation is you need to also appreciate and have consideration for the people around you. I’m all for giving children choices over what they consume, given certain limitations, but there’s a big difference between asking the waitress to come back in 10 minutes because the child hasn’t decided on their side orders and holding up an entire line of people for choices that should have been made before you ever got into line. IMHO, YMMV.

[Rilchiam]

@Cerri

Giving a child options in a world in which small children have limited options at best can be a very empowering thing, which, as I said, can be generally a good thing. The stipulation is you need to also appreciate and have consideration for the people around you. I’m all for giving children choices over what they consume, given certain limitations, but there’s a big difference between asking the waitress to come back in 10 minutes because the child hasn’t decided on their side orders and holding up an entire line of people for choices that should have been made before you ever got into line. IMHO, YMMV.

Indeed. But I wasn’t questioning your method, nor did I object to the OP. I was questioning jjimm, who said “Here’s what you’re eating. Don’t like it? Tough.” That doesn’t sound like discipline; that just sounds like being a dick.

[Cerri]

Also, I meant to mention this, but forgot in my last post.

Too many choices can be just as detrimental to a child as no choices. Too many choices can be completely overwhelming to a young child. The best bet, imo, is to take the possible large range of options a child might have, pick two or three you know the child (for a very small child, you can add additional options the older the child gets, age-appropriateness is the key) likes, and have him choose between those.

For instance, if we go out to a restaurant, we don’t make the kids order off the kid’s menu. His daughter who’s 12 is getting interested in a broader (and healthier, yay!) range of foods, and we try to encourage that. At the same time his son, who just turned 8 isn’t as broad-minded about food, though will frequently eat anything put in front of him (as long as you don’t tell him what it is if it’s something he might consider “squicky”)

In either case, for two completely different reasons we try to encourage them to eat things off the kid’s menu, which is usually a small variety of fried or fat-laden crappy food.

However, while his daughter is old enough to be able to canvass an entire menu and pick out exactly what she wants, the wide variety of choices is overwhelming to his son, who will cover his face with his hands and just continually grunt “Idunnowhatever” when asked what he wants.

So what we do is pick 3 or 4 things we know he’d eat that leans towards the healthier side of restaurant dining and letting him pick from those options. He now has options he wouldn’t have had from the crappy kid’s menu, he gets the empowerment of making his own food choices, and he’s not completely overwhelmed by too many choices.

[Cerri]

@Rilchiam

Indeed. But I wasn’t questioning your method, nor did I object to the OP. I was questioning jjimm, who said “Here’s what you’re eating. Don’t like it? Tough.” That doesn’t sound like discipline; that just sounds like being a dick.

Oh, I wasn’t trying to accuse you of questioning my methods or objecting, I just kinda wanted to reiterate in general that while I think giving kids options is a good thing, I really won’t put up with bullshit or tantrums from them in public, without sounding like a complete monster

(On a complete side note, how odd is it that someone would even consider they might sound like a monster when actually daring to demand good behavior from children in public. These are odd times, imo…my parents would have just slapped me one to the back of the head and expected me to cry quietly while they finished their transaction. chuckle)

[jjimm]

@Rilchiam

Okay, but is Dr. Byron’s method like what Cerri described [“Behave or we’re leaving”], or is it a matter of not giving them any say in anything [“You vill eat ze ham und cheese on ze vhite bread; zere iss no ozzer option”]? Because I can’t imagine that having a kid completely at your mercy is any better, in the long run, than being completely at his mercy.

No, she’s much more compassionate than I was suggesting. I withdraw the “dickish” comment, which is an exaggeration. In fact, for the children with eating disorders, she encourages them to sniff and kiss the foodstuffs they dislike, giving them the option to try or not. Some children have never ever chewed food, and have developed an aversion to using their teeth. She fills the table with bowls of crunchy foods and leaves the children there to explore, for days on end. Eventually the kids start to sniff the food, and most of them end up tasting them, or even eating stuff.

She gives negative feedback to the child in a very firm manner, and once they understand, reinforces that understanding with praise. Child A came into the house and immediately started jumping on the sofa. She grabbed him gently by the arms and looked into his eyes, and very sternly said “you do not jump on the sofa in this house. Never. Do you understand?” The kid was shocked, presumably never having received such discipline. He nodded. “Good,” said the doctor with a smile. Then stern again: “If you jump on the sofa again, I will punish you, and you will not like it. Do you understand?” Nod. Big smile and a hug, and “well done”.

She also employs this in the face of tantrums. She is unpleasant while the tantrum lasts, never giving in, but warm and affectionate once it’s over. The behaviour soon stops. I appreciate they’re in a controlled environment and not a shopping mall, but the point is that if the kid knows generally that tantrums don’t work, then they’re not going to use them elsewhere.

Another example: child B would not sleep in her bed. In fact, she had never slept in her bed. Instead, the only place she would ever sleep was in the living room, with her parents there, who consequently hadn’t slept in their own bed for years. Once under guidance from Dr Byron, the instruction to her parents was to return Child B to bed and leave her there. Every single time she got up. The first night they had to do this seventy times. The next night, twenty, the next, five or six, and the next night the kid went straight to sleep in her own bed.

Anyway, I’m not a parent, and I do realise I’m speaking from a position of ignorance, so perhaps I should bow out of this discussion. But I’ve observed my friends with families, and the ones with set, fixed boundaries for their kids seem to have a happier life and happier kids than the parents who give the children free rein.

[Salem]

And this is exactly how we’ve ended up with a shitload of kids that feel entitled to the world revolving around them. I have three kids, 17, 12 and 4, all of whom have very different personalities and response to/need for discipline. So I discipline them differently, but I discipline them all. Kids need to be parented. That would be the whole point. In the animal kingdom, babies stay with their parents until they are ready to fend for themselves. How long that period lasts is different for different species, but there is a training and “education” period where the parent teaches the baby how to survive on their own. Why should it be any different for humans? Do you think a mother dog lets a puppy bite her because he’s “expressing himself”? What happens to a puppy that doesn’t learn not to bite? Of course there’s more to it with humans, but the basic principle remains. You are the parent and your job is to teach your child how to negotiate successfully in the real world. You have to teach the child that they have a right to a safe, healthy environment with some recreational opportunities. They are NOT entitled to an IPod, a cell phone, the use of the computer and the keys to my car any time they want. Sometimes you can choose the amount of mustard on your sandwich, and sometimes you get mayo whether you like it or not.

I have heard from my kids, “but YOU get ‘this’…” And my response is, “I am 46 years old. I have a job. I went to high school and college and graduated with honors. I have worked in one capacity or another since then. I have EARNED ‘this’. When you can say the same thing, you will be entitled to it. When you own your own car, that you have worked to pay for, then you can choose the radio station. When you are the one paying the phone bill, you can talk to your heart’s content.” Right now their job is to be good students and to learn to do household chores and to work as part of a team - in this case, our family. That is how they earn privledges such as computer time, phone time, going out, money. And I see a lot of their friends getting this stuff “free”. These are the same kids who will graduate from college, expect to make 100,000 dollars in their first job and be shocked that it doesn’t come with a car, apartment and groceries. And they’ll quit their job the first time their boss is “not faaaaaaiiiiiiiir” and want to move back in with Mom and Dad.

Sometimes you have choices and sometimes you don’t, but you always have the personal freedom to change your response to a situation and either have a good attitude about it or not. As I’ve told my kids a hundred times, it takes x amount of time to get from point A to Point B, depending on the distance. You might shave a little off by speeding or it takes a little longer cause you’re stuck in traffic, but either way, it’s not going to change the fact that there is a certain distance between Point A and Point B and it takes time to cover that distance. You can spend that time being miserable or you can make it fun. And sometimes that is the only choice you have.

[Rilchiam]

jjimm: Okay then!

[Khadaji]

@Eva Luna

Yeah, you should have seen what happened here a few weeks ago when my friendly neighborhood cafe attempted to improve the parenting skills of some of its customers. But you are not alone; their front window is now covered with fan letters.

Wow. That guy would *definitely *get my business!

[Ceejaytee]

@jjimm

Another example: child B would not sleep in her bed. In fact, she had never slept in her bed. Instead, the only place she would ever sleep was in the living room, with her parents there, who consequently hadn’t slept in their own bed for years. Once under guidance from Dr Byron, the instruction to her parents was to return Child B to bed and leave her there. Every single time she got up. The first night they had to do this seventy times. The next night, twenty, the next, five or six, and the next night the kid went straight to sleep in her own bed.

My husband’s cousin, a pediatrician, told us that when you try to change a child’s sleeping habits, expect 2 nights of hell and then it will be over. Seems like that’s exactly how it worked in your example and that’s how it happened at our house too. Knowing that it would only be 2 nights made it much easier to get our son to put himself to sleep.

I’m learning to no longer make empty threats. I had a tendency to threaten in a louder voice, as if that would make a difference. Now I calmly mention that a time-out will follow the bad behavior and then, off he goes. We also have a countdown from 5. By the time we get to zero, either the bad behavior stops or a privilege is revoked or a time-out happens. Even the 18-month old understands the countdown.

My kids are pretty well-behaved in restaurants, and the older one understands the concept of inside voice. If the younger is getting rambunctious, I pick him up and take him out, and the older one either finishes dinner with daddy if we’re almost done, or we get it wrapped up and take it out. Bad behavior in public places is not acceptable in our familly.

[Corii]

@Misnomer

“Unattended Children Will Be Given an Espresso and a Puppy” made me laugh so hard that I started coughing! I love that sign!

I noticed as I walked past one of my local consignment stores that they had that sign pasted to the front door! Gave me a good laugh.

[DiosaBellissima]

@Danalan

At Subway, did you say anything, or did you just suffer in silence? I’d have spoken up, and told the parent off. I’d have calmly told them that there was a substantial line of people who knew what they wanted, and that they might want to have a little consideration for the others.

Boo on Subway for not having enough/ appropriate staff, too.

Our office is right across the parking lot, actually. I just ran back to work for 20 min, came back, and saw that Mommy and W.P. were just finishing up.
And Case Sensitive , I also don’t have kids yet, but I do remember what my mom did with me. She knew what I liked and didn’t like (ham vs turkey, etc.), but I was not given this lengthy list of choices. She would order because she was considerate and knew her FOUR YEAR OLD shouldn’t be controlling a situation…

Rilchiam - I didn’t notice what the little boy was screaming about. I’m sure it just started out with the fact that Mom and Dad were totally ignoring him and he was bored.

@Salem

I have heard from my kids, “but YOU get ‘this’…” And my response is, “I am 46 years old. I have a job. I went to high school and college and graduated with honors. I have worked in one capacity or another since then. I have EARNED ‘this’. When you can say the same thing, you will be entitled to it. When you own your own car, that you have worked to pay for, then you can choose the radio station. When you are the one paying the phone bill, you can talk to your heart’s content.”

. . . Mom?

I guess I’m just particularly edgy about these things because of how my parents/grandparents were with me. From a very, very young age I was going to big, fancy-pants restaurants with the family and always being a good, little child because I knew my livlihood depended on it. I remember throwing a tantrum in a restaurant once (I was four, spilled something, and thought mom was going to be really mad at me- so I just started screaming). Within two minutes, I was removed from the situation and we headed over to McDonalds (as I wasn’t being punished, Mom just realized I was frustrated). As far as I’m concerned, that’s what you should do- not let your kid scream for 20+ minuntes.

I should note that in all of these cases I don’t blame the kids at all- this is all the parenting. Someday, when the kids are big, grow up assholes- yeah, then I’ll blame 'em.

[saoirse]

@Rhubarb

The two worst (IMO) tactics used by parents in dealing with a misbehaving child are a.) completely ignoring them and b.) issuing empty threats. In the first case, the child is acting out to either get attention or because he/she knows it will be ignored, so ignoring them just feeds the problem. In the second case, the child quickly learns that the threats are hollow and stops hearing them, again reinforcing their bad behavior.

In the first case, the kid knows you can’y really ignore him, and knows he can continue to make you suffer.

As far as empty threats go, you’re absolutely right. I do think at some point every parent “bluffs,” and usually gets called on it. It’s usually just exhaustion and sloppy thinking. I remember making stupid threats to my kids a couple times. Then I had to backtrack and say,“Well, that was a silly thing to say. You will, however, go straight home and straight to bed,” or something along those lines.

[smiling_bandit]

by DiosaBellissima
In fact, I’m positive that your child does not know the difference between white, wheat, Italian herb and cheese, honey oat, or something with asiago cheese.

I’m not certain if I know all the differences between the 80-odd kinds of bread at Subway.

by Case Sensitive
can always tell a young child what they’re going to eat, but “My way or no way” just doesn’t work over food: they can be choosy eaters

They don’t have to eat the food in front of them. They don’t have to eat at all. You’d be amazed how fast that gets them back to the table.

[Baker]

I don’t remember this incident, I was barely four I am told. I’d just started going to Sunday School, and apparently I was behaving quite badly.(Imagine that!) So my father took me out of the superintendents office. He could have whacked me and told me I was going back whether I wanted to or not, but he knew me very well as a stubborn child. Instead I was told “OK, you don’t have to go to Sunday School. In fact I’m not going to let you go. Remember the Christmas program you liked? You’ll never ever get to do that with the other kids, or any of the other fun things.” After that I’m told I* wanted * to go to Sunday School. Great psychologist, my father.

I do remember, at the age of eight, being whiny when I was being taught to count change. I was going to be getting an allowance, and dad wanted me to count it out myself. Lazy me was being difficult and wanted the work done for me. “If you don’t count the change yourself, you don’t get the money!” worked like a charm, and suddenly it was all so easy.

[Voyager]

@Ceejaytee

My husband’s cousin, a pediatrician, told us that when you try to change a child’s sleeping habits, expect 2 nights of hell and then it will be over. Seems like that’s exactly how it worked in your example and that’s how it happened at our house too. Knowing that it would only be 2 nights made it much easier to get our son to put himself to sleep.

Worked that way for us, when our first kid started waking up at 2 am (after she had given up the night time bottle.) Two days of crying for a long, long time, then never another problem.

We trained our kids at Sunday brunches, with grandparents there too. They got to eat right away, and if they got fussy one of us would take them out to the lobby of the hotel where the brunch was, right away. Minimal disruption to eating, it was a nice place, so they learned how to behave in a good restaurant, and no one else was ever bothered. It worked great, and neither of the kids was ever a pain in restaurants.

[irishgirl]

Whatever happened to “If I have to take you to the car we are NEVER eating out again”?

When said by my mother that wasn’t a threat, it was a guarantee.

Guess how many times we got taken to the car…