Patriotism in America

In My Humble Opinion
1

A couple of days ago, I read an article in Rolling Stone about the singer/pianist Alicia Keys, who is (part, if I recall correctly) black. In discussing the events of 9/11, she got around to talking about how people are walking around wearing flag-related clothing, displaying flags, etc., and how she just couldn’t feel patriotic because of her black ancestry, and couldn’t bring herself to, say, wear a flag pin or whatever as a result. Essentially, she could not feel proud of America because of its history of slavery. Ms. Keys, by the way, is 19 or 20 years old. I’ve read newspaper columns in the local (Chicago) papers that have a similar theme - black Americans have a difficult time feeling patriotism for America.

This is a strange idea to me. Granted, I’m not black - I’m half Mexican, half Norwegian (Norxican! Mexiwegian!), but have encountered racist mentalities (no where near the extent or intensity that black Americans experience, though, I’m sure). However, I am fiercely proud of the country I live in, and I feel fortunate to have been born here and to live here. I would die for my country. I certainly am not proud of America’s history of slavery, but I am proud of the efforts that have been made since (and admittedly far too slowly) to change the racist behavior and thoughts of Americans. I am proud of the freedoms we enjoy, including the freedom to voice disagreement with the government and to try to effect change.

I can’t imagine what it would be like to live in a country with whose policies I so strongly disagree, or in a country whose past wrongs disturbed me so much that, in spite of the country’s later attempts at corrective action, I could not feel proud to be a citizen of that country.

I don’t believe flag displaying or wearing is a measure of patriotism. I’m not trying to make this a “love it or leave it” thing. And I think it’s best for all involved to voice their disagreements and have a diversity of opinion. Of course everyone is going to be unhappy about one thing or another at some time. But if I ever get to the point that I am so disgruntled by everything that my native country does, I would have to consider leaving and living someplace where the actions the country takes on behalf of its citizens doesn’t make me ashamed all the time.

Am I missing something?

2

Just because she can’t relate to the flag-wearers and wavers doesn’t necessarily mean she doesn’t love her country, nor does it mean she doesn’t feel for the victims of Sept. 11.

Here’s a couple lines from the excerpt at rollingstone.com

That says more to me about how she feels about her country than whether or not she wears the flag.

3

I’m not sure it’s got anything to do with race, it seems like a matter of individual personality and values.

I can’t say I have ever felt particularly proud to be American. Not ashamed, exactly (except when listening to elderly American package tourists in other countries), but … more like being American is not such a big deal. I am glad that I live in a reasonably prosperous democracy, but there are several dozen other reasonably prosperous democracies out there, and some of them are arguably nicer places to live than here. I just don’t get the American mystique.

Left to my own devices, I would not have chosen the American flag as the best symbol to memorialize the events of September 11th – not all of the victims were American, after all, and in any case I’d prefer something more overtly emblematic of grief. This doesn’t mean I’ve got any quarrel with people who do choose to fly the flag, it’s just not an image that feels right to me.

Anyway (to get back to the OP), Ms. Keys seems to feel the same way for slightly different reasons, and I’d say more power to her.

4

Thanks, mack. I tried to make it clear that the flag-wearing thing was really incidental. She said that she couldn’t feel patriotic the same way others did/do (and tried to display via flag-wearing, because she is black. She said, “I can’t go there…I can’t suddenly be all patriotic.”

Certainly, though, it was clear that she empathizes with the victims. Nothing against her - she’s bright, talented, and cute as hell - but I was looking to gain insight on the mindset.

5

I may have overstated the race bit - the author preceded her remarks with a mini-rundown on civil rights in America. May or may not be the reasons behind the way she feels - he may have been putting words in her mouth.

But I have read a columnist in the Sun-Times who feels this way at least in part because she is black.

6

Well the first thing I thought when I read it was that it’s the same as associating the confederate flag with racism. We associate it with that time in history when slavery occurred (or KKK demonstrations), but that doesn’t mean that either flag by itself implies racism.

Very few are proud of the fact that the US once had really bad things in our history. Patriotism is a celebration of what we have become. I fly the flag in honor of the legacy of Martin Luther King Jr. just as much as in honor ofGeorge Washington. So, I reserve the right to criticize people for not being patriotic, but I don’t condemn them. After all, how many were truly patriotic a year ago? At least those who aren’t now never were so I admire that. I myself have not changed.

7

Well, there’s been a lot done in America since we had slavery. Last I remember, we abolished it. And we treated a lot of races/ethnicities poorly - Irish, Indians, Germans, Jews, etc. That was then and this is now.

I don’t believe flag displaying or wearing is a measure of patriotism.

A measure of, no. An expression of, yes. It’s become fashionable, and doesn’t have as much meaning.

But if I ever get to the point that I am so disgruntled by everything that my native country does, I would have to consider leaving and living someplace where the actions the country takes on behalf of its citizens doesn’t make me ashamed all the time.

I’d agree. If you live in the United States, but aren’t willing to display/honor the flag, then you should be honest and leave for somewhere else. Yes, in 200 years our country had done some bad things. But people of all colors have died to defend that flag and all that it stands for. When I fly that flag on my porch or when I see it, it reminds me of all the people that died to defend the United States and our ideal of democracy.

Am I missing something?

Nope. Nothing against Ms. Keyes, who is a fine singer and a good person. But perhaps she could sit down with a black veteran who could tell her about the racism in the Army, and why he still fought.

[closed quote and italic tags–Veb]

[Edited by TVeblen on 10-28-2001 at 04:18 AM]

8

I don’t know. I think many people set aside their past feelings when this horrific series of events occurred last month. I felt like some fanatics attempted murder on me personally, so I can only focus on today & hopefully tomorrow…

9

I’ve never been all that comfortable with flag waving, wearing the flag pins, and getting all huffy over the national anthem…but that doesn’t make me any less patriotic than the Lee Greenwoods out there.

I liken it to religion in a way. For example, Abraham Lincoln was an extremely devout man, and guided deeply by Christian principles. Yet, Lincoln never belonged to any formal denomination and wasn’t much of a churchgoer. That is like my attitude toward patriotism. I love America deeply, but I also have a healthy suspicion of anyone who parades around wrapped in a flag. To me patriotism is a question of one’s inner ethics not one’s outward appearances. Maybe I am just afriad of anything that reeks of nationalism in any way.

I can’t speak for black people - I won’t even pretend to speak for my own ethnic group- but enough racists have cloaked their bigotry in red, white, and blue to give some people a very deep suspicion of patriotism. The only thing that Americans can do to change that perception is to do the same thing we are now asking of Muslims; denounce all people who commit evil in your name, or beside your flag.

10

I thought Alicia Keys performed at the WTC telethon. Or maybe not.

11

Discrimination and racial hatred are not a “thing of the past”; they are very much alive and unwell. In my community, there are still areas in which a person of color would be placing themselves at substantial risk of verbal or physical abuse, if they decided to do terrible things such as trying to eat at a restaurant or walk down the street. Many metropolitan areas continue to have poorly funded school systems and public services due to “white flight” to the suburbs. And commonplace, atrocious acts of hatred and violence were occurring a mere 30 to 40 years ago. In hell-holes, like Mississippi, state troopers and police departments actively took part in harassing, beating, and killing African Americans and supporters of Civil Rights. If anyone cannot understand why a person of any race could be sickened by this recent past, to the point of being unable to exhibit rabid patriotism, I suggest that they study up on the history of this country that wasn’t taught in school.

12

She did. I’m not questioning her empathy to victims at all, though.

HairyPotter, I certainly understand that racism remains a major, major problem in America. My question is NOT how someone could dislike America, its policies or its culture. My question is why would someone who actively dislikes most things about a country choose to remain there.

13

Are you suggesting on the basis of this interview that Alicia Keys “actively dislikes most things about” the United States?

I won’t wear a U.S. flag pin, not because I “actively dislike” the United States, but because I actively dislike what many of the people in it are doing and supporting. Anyone can spend a dollar on a flag pin at the mall. It doesn’t mean that they’re actually thinking about what that flag means beyond a very knee-jerk response to the 9/11 events.

The political right for about the last 45 years has made flag-worship (and its correlary, pledge recitation) a pre-requisite to being an American. Many on the political left have largely ceded the symbolism of the flag to the right, which IMHO is a mistake. Still, up until 9/11 and to an extent after 9/11, my feeling on spotting someone wearing a flag pin was “conservative” along with a host of assumptions about the person’s politics. I realize that this was manifestly unfair and I did try to get past those assumptions whenever I could.

Currently I wear two pins. One is an Afghanistan flag. The other is an Afghanistan/US “friendship” pin consisting of the two flags on crossed standards. I wear the former in solidarity with the innocent people of Afghanistan that the US is bombing and the latter in the hope that we will stop. The friendship pin was the only way that I could comfortably wear any US flag emblem.

14

I’m a “Navy brat”. I grew up going to movies on Naval bases and seeing a big flag on the screen accompanied by The Star Spangled Banner. I was (and am) proud of my father who went from an army enlisted man to an officer in the U.S. Navy. I stand for our Anthem, and I get a little misty when the Missing Man formation is flown.

When I drive through, or fly over, parts of the United States, I look upon its grandure and think, “This is my country.” I see how people pull together in times of need. I hear about the little acts of kindness performed by our people for others – citizens or visitors – in this country. I remember how my father, retired from the Navy and working as a Flight Service Specialist for the FAA, would offer a bed and meals to pilots who were stranded due to weather or mechanical problems.

I think of Coldfire’s May 5th thread and the depth of feeling others feel for us.

We haven’t always been as good as we would like to be. We have involved ourselves in matters we should not have. We have sometimes put money in front of fairness. For this, I am not proud of America. But even when we’re someplace we shouldn’t be, we mean well. That’s the thing about Americans. We mean well. It’s hard to fault a people who really do want to do what’s right. Sometimes we screw the pooch, but we try to learn from our mistakes.

I’m not proud of some of the things this country has done, but there are many more things to be proud of than not. Americans are freindly, open, generous people. We may be quick to anger, but we are also quick to forgive. We may seem arrogant, but dammit, we like most of the people of the world. The ones we don’t like, we are willing to to try to work out our differences with.

I never flew a flag until September, but I have worn one on my flight jacket and have always had a few flags stored away. For me, patriotism is more than flying a flag. It’s the appreciation of all of the good things there are about this country, and at the same time knowing there are bad things that have to be fixed.

For all of our bluster, we’re good people. And we want to be good people. That might sound naive to some cynics, but we really do want to be friends. I think that’s worth being patriotic about.

15

No. I was using the interview as a jumping-off point for the idea - that there ARE people who actively dislike most things about America (or any country), yet remain here (or there). Regarding the remainder of your post, it’s not about the flag, or flag flying, either - simply that some Americans are at such odds with the US government/culture that they cannot feel patriotic. The flag issue is just one aspect of that.

So, with more clarity than my OP had (now that I reread it, it’s pretty murky) - I do not think Americans should wear/display flags if they are uncomfortable with it. I don’t think people who wear/display flags are more patriotic than those who don’t.

All I want to know is if you don’t like a country or its actions for the most part, why stay there?

16

If everyone who feels disaffected at the way the country (or I guess I should say “a” country since there is no reason to limit this to the United States) is just left it, then nothing would ever change. Add to this the simple fact that the overwhelming majority of people in the world lack the means to change nationalities even if they wanted to. While I am very displeased with a number of things this nation has done, recently, in the past and before I was born, I’m not prepared to give up on it, or to give it up.

There was an outstanding article in Sunday’s Wisconsin State Journal on a topic very similar to this. The link should go up in a couple of days. If this thread’s still in my mind I’ll post it. IMHO it should be required reading.