I would have absolutely NO problem paying up to $20.00 per year to post here, IF a couple of problems are resolved.
First of all, let me say that I have not read this whole thread, so if this has already been said, oh well. See my reason number one for why I have not read the whole thread.
In order to get me to pay even one cent, the powers-that-be will have to do some serious looking into the problems with the speed of the boards. I will not pay to wait for up to 5 minutes between pages loading. And I won’t pay to post only at 3 in the morning when nobody else is on the board. That is just plain stupid. And don’t tell me to get a faster connection, like a cable modem. It ain’t available where I live. Neither is DSL.
I do not use credit cards. Period. If they can set up some system where we could pay with a check, fine.
Incidently, someone, somewhere stated that you could “buy” a MasterCard someplace like K-Mart. They are used to buy stuff on the net only. My local K-Mart doesn’t know anything about it. At least the person I talked to didn’t. More info?
D’oh, I just realized that link is for people who already have mastercards, but it’s the same idea.
I would just call around to drug stores and other K-Mart-esque places (Wal-Mart, Target, etc.) in your area. I’ve seen them in some random places before.
My WAG would be that if it was considered it was instantly rejected because usenet sucks a great deal. I’d much rather pay $50 a year than go usenet. If it goes usenet, ya won’t have ol’ Stoid to kick around anymore.
(I happen to think that vBulletin should be the mandatory message board software for the whole planet. I’m constantly begging places like The Motley Fool and other interesting places with horrifying message board software to switch. Simple, elegant, obvious, that’s vBulletin!)
I agree that most people won’t bother to file suit over 20 bucks. But I can still see it happening now and then, mainly out of annoyance (and the desire to be annoying).
If I forked over $20 and was banned the next day – with no refund – for what I perceived to be improper reasons, I’d be tempted.
I disagree the statement “usenet sucks a great deal”. I have had no problems with usenet, I’ve been active there for years, and still am. It may take some getting used to, and downloading a decent news reader is a good first step(anyone trying to use Netscape Communicator or Outlook Express probably has horror stories of usenet because of the client, not the system). Teach people to use scorefiles, have a group like ATMB where advice can be given on a few specific clients, and above all, moderate the forums(like we do here) and use registration. Moderated usenet groups are amazing things. And if they transistion the current servers over, they’ll have a mini-usenet where they can do pretty much anything they want, but is much easier on the servers. It’s much easier to serve text over NNTP and let the client handle things like threading and searches, than any type of web-board software.
I think the only thing standing in the way of an easy transition of the boards to a usenet based system would be prejudices against usenet based upon bad experiences which may or may not have been the result of the basic design of the system.
Well, I sent in my pre-registration early Friday and indicated I’d pay…but now I sorta wish I hadn’t.
I’m drifting towards both the “No on principle” and “No for practicals” camps.
I agree with MrVisible and Tranquilis (at the risk of being the subject of the same scorn heaped upon them for their views) that asking me to pay for my contributions seems…well, not right.
Further, I agree that it is likely that the board will degenerate rapidly if a PTP scheme is implemented. I’d pay for what it is now, but I doubt that what it will become will be worth paying for.
And finally, I’ve realized something: The Straight Dope led me here, but I stayed because I like the people here. If a lot of folks here go elsewhere, then THAT will be the place to be, SD or no.
I fully understand the Reader’s need to at least break even on the SDMB if the SDMB is to survive. The question is how to do it without killing it off in the process. We all need to face a few facts.
FACT: The SDMB costs money and somebody has to pay for it.
FACT: They don’t call it the Straight Dope Message Board for nothing. I’m a complete newbie at posting but I’ve lurked on this board for a couple of years. I was finally prompted to register because I wanted to ask a question in the Ask the Muslim Guy thread. I would NEVER have even considered doing so if I had to pay a fee before I could start posting. Now, I’m getting hooked.
The point is that new posters will almost completely disappear if they need to pay a fee before they can get on the board. You have to get them involved first.
FACT: No newbies means no board. IMHO the real attraction of the SDMB isn’t necesarily the people who have 3000 posts to their credit. The real value is that a very large number of intelligent and aware people with unique experiences and perspectives read – and participate in – this board. When you ask a question or participate in a debate, you often get very perceptive and valuable input from someone who may have only made a handful of posts. For an extreme example of this, take a look at the original “Ask the Muslim Guy” thread. It’s just as true, however, on the “What Dog Should I Get?” thread.
If you eliminate the newbies, you’ll be left with a small handful of contributors who make lots of posts. These people are interesting and valuable, however, they simply won’t be able to maintain the level of the board. Eventually, even they will miss the newbies and will
get bored of asking each other the same questions and engaging in the same debates.
FACT: Any plan that doesn’t address all of the above will result in the SDMB being closed.
With all due respect to the Reader and the Mods, they couldn’t have thought of everything! Given the way this board works, I find it kind of ironic that they haven’t taken a slightly different approach. Why not start a thread saying, “We need a new business model. It must address all of these issues. What should we do?” At best, this might generate a good idea. At worst, it would have to be more entertaining reading for the mods than the current thread which (while it does have few postive suggestions) consists primarily of complaints, recriminations and flames.
In that spirit, I suggest the following. Keep the current system allowing free registration and posting. However, make people pay for an identity. In other words, people can post questions and responses on the boards but the questions and responses will be entirely anonymous until they pay a subscription fee. This should be be technically easy to implement. It won’t deter newbies and I’d bet that it would actually generate more revenue than a straight subscription fee because more people will get involved in the SDMB. In any case, it’s worth a try as an intermediate step before implementing a fee that everyone agrees will drastically reduce participation in the board.
I was a complete Usenet addict in college, before there was a Web. And compared to vBulletin, it does suck. Granted, my current access to it at home is via Outlook Express.
The bigger problem is that I usually read and post solely from work, at which I have web access, but no Usenet access.
We use Pegasus mail for e-mail, which either does not function as a Usenet newsreader, or is not configured for that here. Not to mention LAN and firewall issues.
OK, I have no idea what I’m talking about, other than I’ve asked our IT department about Usenet groups, and been shot down. They are not one for custom installs, either.
So anyway, I’m not saying my situation is particularly important, but others may be in the same situation as me. Web access is pretty ubiquitous these days; Usenet access is not.
(As I mentioned, I do have Usenet access at home, though. I’ve had no real trouble configuring access on my own computer equipment.)
Have you seen Google Groups? They took over the old Deja archives and, even though I think they are still in their infancy in terms of a full-featured web-based newsreader, they’re still fairly usable. I’m just spoiled by NewsRover and FreeAgent I’m sure. Barring that, MailAndNews.com gives away accounts with newsgroup feeds from supernews. Again, very basic, but with moderated groups there shouldn’t be too much need to build elaborate score/killfiles or any of the truly advanced features of a good news client. The one thing I haven’t seen web-based newsreaders do very well is threading, but I’ll admit to being out of touch with the state-of-the-art due to not using them much. Maybe Remarq or Easynews, or Supernews(just spouting news providers I have seen mentioned in various places, insert your favorite), or something else has a much better web-client.
I’m fairly sure we could come up with a lightweight form-based posting method to have on the Straight Dope main page, or an FAQ that directs people on how to use Google, or something else. It might not be as user-friendly as the current “click here to go to the boards” but it’s better than the “click here to go to the boards” link not working.
I suspect you’ve already violated this principle in your life - have you ever paid a cover charge to go to a bar? When I pay them, I’m not doing it because I think the bar’s motif or lighting scheme is really fly; I’m paying because I think the people inside (who have also paid) will be fun, or cool, or incredibly sexy.
Can’t argue with this.
lucwarm (standard disclaimer about legal advice) I’m not convinced by your analysis of the potential legal pitfalls. I’ve seen enough contracts with language along the lines of “at the sole discretion of …” to think the Chicago Reader can get away with this. But I’d like to discuss this more. Wanna start a GD thread about the issue?
to all those who are accusing the Chicago Reader of being Satan - kindly whack off with a cheese grater. Bitch and moan, if you please. Present arguments as to why charging for the SDMB is bad idea. Give alternatives.
But to accuse an organization of evil intent for thinking about charging for a luxury is, IMO, conclusive evidence that you have an IQ of a garden snail.
Shayna - Fine, Ed Zotti is lying to us. He hasn’t uncovered every rock in his quest to provide to you for free something that costs money. Big fucking deal. Have you written to Coca-cola demanding that they find alternative means of providing you with sugar and caffiene for free?
I hope this never happens. The current dependency on active content puts too much load on servers. I would like to see a variant of the software which only updates pages when posts are made, decreasing that load enormously. I don’t think vBulletin is the way to go.
Sua, I’m disappointed in you. You struck me as a brighter man than what the above would indicate.
Please show me where I said Ed Zotti, or anyone else, owed me anything for free that costs money. Go on. I dare you.
Ed Zotti is the one who made the claim that they’d tried everything either they or I could possibly think of, and therefore, Pay to Post is their last option). We either sign up for it or the boards will be shut down.
HE made the claim. Not me.
Fine, you want to quibble over the word “lying?” We’ll change it to “untrue.”
It is untrue that they’ve tried every alternative to Pay to Post, as is evidenced by some of the great suggestions we’ve seen thrown out in some of these threads. ie: We could be given the option to buy advertising (which I happen to know they’ve turned down offers of in the past). They could put banner ads on the pages and offer a subscriber option to disable them for people who’d rather not see them. They could do any number of things that they haven’t tried yet.
And let me say this carefully so there’s no room for misunderstanding…
I am not saying (nor have I ever said) that they had to do any of that. They don’t have to do dick squat if they don’t want to. It’s their board and their prerogative.
But they’ve told us that they are at the point where they consider Pay to Post the ONLY option to continuing to post here. They’ve tried everything. (Again, not my words.)
I merely pointed out the inaccuracy of that claim.
And I stated how that claim made me feel.
Feelings cannot be invalidated. You may not have the same feelings as I do, and that’s ok. But you cannot tell me I can’t feel what I feel.
I feel like they don’t really care what we think. You could argue that that’s not the case, since they’re asking for feedback in the survey so they will know how we feel. But they’re only asking us if we’d agree to pay to post. They’re not asking us for any alternatives, because they’ve “tried everything” else.
Will you pay to post - yes or no?
If yes, we proceed.
If no, the boards get closed.
That’s what that survey is. That’s what it states, outright. If I’ve misread it, let me know (certainly I may have).
I’ve also stated more than once that I would not object to pitching in if they really needed it. In my opinion, they don’t need it until they’ve exhausted the obvious solution, which is paid advertising - which is available to them at no cost and very little effort, but which they frown upon because they were at one time “ebarrassed” by some psychic reading ads that appeared (discounting the fact that they have the ability to screen out any objectionable advertising in programs such as the ones I and THespos have mentioned).
I simply don’t see Pay to Post as the last option before shutting down the boards. No, they don’t have to try everything else in the universe. But please don’t tell me you have, when, in fact, you haven’t. There are alternatives. I’d simply like them to consider one or more of them before they turn this into a Pay to Post environment which could likely die out very quickly because of people’s reluctance to pay for a message board when there are so many free alternatives out there.
It seems to me that when a contract gives one party unlimited discretion, that discretion must be exercised in good faith.
If you signed up, paid your $20, and then get banned the next day (with no refund) because your IP address matches that of a “troll,” it seems to me that an argument can be made that the admins are not acting in good faith.
FWIW, I do agree with you. We should all recognise the acute dangers PTP brings and I really do very seriously fear for the future of the board. I also think every sensible option does not only need to be explored but be seen to be explored so as many as possible are convinced that PTP is the only remaining option.
Some are trying to work out what kind of money we’re talking about in ATMB – maybe it’s me but all the options under discussion here and in other threads should make more sense once we have some target figures to work with.
In the last few months I’ve had to start paying for:
Art Bell’s program streaming online
My weather service emails
Callwave
My online newspaper
Video cam of a reality show
So, I can see if coming; I’ll be paying more and more for services that were previously free. And it won’t be just an inconsequential amount when you add it all up. When I was working I didn’t mind, but now I’m retired and every penny counts. Damm, I knew it was too good to last. The good news it that some of these sites promise NO advertising. Shouldn’t have to pay for wading through the ads.
