Err…I’m pretty sure I posted that; not Kyla. Maybe my memory is slipping…
Honestly, the protest is a real mix of people, and there are plenty of rational protestors there with well-thought-out, valid reasons for not wanting a war. And there are idiots who believe GWB smiled when he got the news. I know some of them. There’s a reason the former I count among friends, the latter not.
It just pisses me off to see the whole group lumped together, and then be told that I should have known all along it was only the half of them that were “really being discussed.”
No, of course you don’t have to be aged and grizzled and wise to be taken seriously. That’s not what I’m saying when I say I hope most of these protestors grow up. (And I have indeed said it, although not, up to now, here.)
When I read about these protestors, I think about myself at age 15. Back then, I might’ve done what these assorted individuals are doing. That’s because at that age I filtered every major event in the world through a special youngdeepbluesea film - same event, but now with added deepbluesea! I wanted to be personally involved. I wanted to be important. I wanted to be the center of attention. I also wanted to be a part of something big and important.
I think a lot of people go through that stage. And then some people outgrow it. They learn that when we don’t agree with the actions of the government, there are ways to make those opinions known - ways that are taken seriously, ways that can make a difference. Sometimes, those ways include marching in protest. But it’s rare. It’s even rarer that those ways include marching in protest while wearing silly outfits and carrying puppets. That has a tendency to make not only the protestors but also the point look ridiculous - which is precisely the opposite of what the peace marchers should want to accomplish.
Although I have not interviewed in depth any protest marchers, my suspicion upon reading about their activities is that they haven’t thought this through. They don’t seem to understand what they’re marching for - saying “there’s been enough suffering” is sweet and all, but precisely what steps are they hoping our government will take to avoid further suffering? Do they want us to cover our eyes and pretend nothing happened? History has shown that to be a less than successful means of averting future suffering. And even if the protestors do have some detailed plan that will avoid any future suffering on the part of any person or group of people, they don’t seem to understand that this is not the best way to communicate that knowledge. The things they’re doing aren’t communicating anything but “Hey! Look at us!”
I’m sorry about that, too, because they may have a valid point, but we’ll never know it. Not until they learn to place the focus on the message rather than themselves.
I would not, however, ever infringe any person’s right to protest in a peaceful manner. For anything. It’s one of the charming things about this country, that we let people do things we think are silly, that we let people believe things we don’t believe. We let them hold and express their opinions, no matter what - even, jabe, if we think they haven’t accomplished much or done much for this world. Doesn’t in any way diminish their right to hold opinions, nor does it any way render their opinions less valid - only the content of the opinion itself can do that.
Of course, I also don’t agree with you when you say that people who give blood or money to the Red Cross have done or accomplished much less than people who are protesting. The protestors are expressing their opinions just like we do, on the SDMB, in RL, wherever - in what way are they better than those of us who merely argue, assuming that there are any here who have done only that? There’s no added nobility in standing and shouting as compared to sitting and typing.
jabe you go right ahead and “protest for peace” all you want. just keep in mind that many are going to look at you and wonder how the fuck such a dipshit ever learned how to post on a message board.
Bin laden and his pals dont care about peace, love, or happiness. they dont give a shit that you have the right to protest for peace. they will be just as happy to kill you as any and every other american in the country. Why? because they are religeous fanatics. killing agents of satan is a good thing to them. It’s irrelevant that they are almost completely out of touch with reality. It doesnt matter that a Very large part of the combined wrath of the civilised world is about to decend on them.
the reason I think your an ass (or anyone supporting nonviolence in the face of this) is because your to fucking caught up in your righteousness to see that its a basic issue of survival. you kill those who try and kill you, you have to or they will eventually win. what will you say when these already dangerous people have nukes in 10 or 15 years? when they manage to perfect a way to spread anthrax in a cities (read many cities) water supplies? will you still be shouting for peace like some pathetic lunatic? or will you look to the future, not even the distant future and see that killing these people now, RIGHT NOW will save many lives and alot of suffering for the next generation.
of course if the peace freaks prevail now then the resulting war could end up curbing global population to the point where we dont have to worry about gross over population for a few more decades. so maybe it is a good thing to vote pacifist on the issue
(note i have a decent buzz and know better to post after a few drinks, forgive me if I’m a rambling idiot right now)
He overstated the case, granted, but so did you. We had a local radio guy interview some of the “It’s Saturday, I’m bored. Hey a protest sounds like fun!” crowd after the protest.
The broadcast was live, so he wasn’t cutting and clipping comments, although he might have been targeting the obvious nuts. Most of the comments were at least borderline rational, even if I disagreed with them, but at least some of the protesters point blank stated “America deserved this” or “America brought this on itself”. One notable asshole said (very close quote) “Any attack on terrorism of Capitalism is to be applauded. I support bin Laden’s destruction of the WTC.” When asked what he’d say to the widows/widowers and orphans, he said “The dead were engaged in terrorism and got what they deserved”. FWIW, the guy right after the nut immediatly distanced himself from those statements.
So, yeah. I’m not claiming that these fuckwits were represented the bulk of the protesters, but there were at least some protesters who wanted to hug bin Laden. And the fact that you won’t admit it is a gratuitious projection of your own denial. (psychobabble is fun!)
Umm, this is the Pit, aren’t I allowed to rant here? I thought I did a good job of remaining coherent, what with the blinding rage and all.
Dropzone sez
I don’t think you’re un-American, man. I think you’re deeply mistaken, but a good guy anyway.
Otto, on the other hand, is a motherless shit-for-brains pussy who wishes to give aid and comfort to the murderers of 6,000 Americans.
I have repeatedly said that protests is a proper expression of the disapproval of the citizen for governmental actions. I have repeatedly cited Thoreau’s refusal to pay his poll tax to protest the Mexican War; Gandhi’s non-violent resistance to British rule; Martin Luther King, Jr.'s marches to end segregation.
In this instance, however, the protesters are dead wrong. The US was not the aggressor, it was the victim. Osama bin Laden is not a freedom fighter; he is a tyrant manque who is against liberalism and modernity in all its forms and who hates and despises the freedoms the naive kids marching in DC take for granted.
To support peace is to knuckle under to a monster.
Actually, I long ago stopped fearing much of anything except heights and that’s something I can get used to when I have to. I even believe in a certain amount of retaliation and have watched with interest and admiration (and stated so here) the delicate way Dubya is handling a delicate situation–nobody who didn’t hate us before 9/11 seems to have started hating us thanks to actions we have or haven’t taken. Things are proceeding nicely and with all due and no undue deliberation. And I actually, and have stated as much in this thread, believe that some of the protestors are silly and misguided and worthy objects of ridicule.
I am just tired of ALL people who oppose a war being lumped into the “whiny brat, too scared to get himself killed for Capitalism” camp. Some of the comments directed at the protestors as a group are simply beyond the pale. By making such comments one places oneself with some of the less thinking, more reactionary posters. We are better than that. We cannot allow the events of 9/11 to turn us into angry children, lassing out at anybody we disagree wit, although I am guilty of that myself. (It’s not “Do as I say, not as I do.” It’s more like “Your reach should exceed your grasp.”) Now, more than we have in two generations, we need cool heads.
September 11 was a pivotal day in world history. It was a slap in humanity’s face that could send us down one of two paths. One is a continuation of the cycle of strike and counterstrike and we do not grow from the experience. The second uses the nearly universal condemnation of the attacks to bring about genuine and positive change. With the first the victims just stay victims. With the second their deaths could have some meaning.
I heard a woman the other day with many contacts inside Afghanistan. Her people tell her that Taliban soldiers are deserting their posts. Thoughtful former Taliban and Northern Alliance* people are asking the UN to take over the country and that now is the time because the country is in such an uproar. By working with the UN instead of working outside of it we could make those people’s lives better. Happy, healthy, and prosperous people do not become terrorists.
So, in a nutshell, my solution is to support what the US government is doing, expand it in concert with the UN, especially with other Mid East governments so the “It’s a War Against Islam!” nuts can’t get a foothold, and work for peace. The humanitarian aid being sent for the refugees is a start and should be expanded. We “peaceniks” must realize that Capitalism is not the enemy. Capitalism didn’t create hunger and despair in Afghanistan, but it can help end it.
And we REALLY don’t want to put the Northern Alliance back in power. They were the guys the Taliban threw out but were no big improvement.
Well, I just heard an Unconfirmed Report that the Taliban has him in custody. That would be a start. Hell, admitting they knew where he was would be a start.
What is the goal of the peace protesters, really? What is their endgame? What is their real strategy to seek retaliation for the attacks on us, the 6000+ slaughtered?
I haven’t heard a good one yet. Oh, I’ve heard some, just not any that seem good to me. They range from “We should impose economic sanctions on Afghanistan” (say what? Afghanistan has an economy of note?) and “We should get the UN to put pressure on them.” (yeah…that works). A distasteful scene in my mind was a 30-something woman who said “I don’t know, I don’t have any answers. I just know Bush needs to be stopped.” All hail the voice of reason, given her 10-second sound bite on international television.
So the protesters are against “war”. Is that really all? Especially when the prospect of an actual “war” seems less and less likely each day? The interviews of them I see on CNN and my local TV don’t say just that. Many interviewed say they are “against violence of any sort”, and “we can’t respond with an eye for an eye” (why?), etc. I haven’t really heard what I consider to be any real good alternative to the use of force in some fashion.
What the Muslims of Afghanistan do to women, lesbians, gays, Hindus, etc. is a crime against humanity, IMO. Anything other than force will allow them to continue to treat women as subhumans, to perform futher “cleansing” of gays and lesbians, and to spread their message of hate and death throughout the World. This is a country that, IMO, has forfeited its right to exist and its sovreignity. It needs a clean sweep of its govenerment, in cooperation with the other Muslim States which are true Muslim States.
Violence doesn’t have to be the answer, however. Present me with alternatives that are workable.
You did an excellent job, m’friend. 'twas a work of art, a thing of beauty. But since drop is, in part complaining that you were inaccurate, I thought I’d point out a similar flaw in drop’s statements.
I favor the use of some kind of military force to respond to the attacks of September 11. I’m also disgusted by the way that the Taliban treats women and other groups. I think it’s a pretty slippery slope though, to suggest that we “use force” against the Taliban because of their treatment of their citizens.
What’s next? China…? India, because of their caste system? Other Muslim states with active Shiite Muslim regimes that also treat women poorly?..Should we have done a “clean sweep” in Rwanda because of the genocidal atrocities committed there? Kosovo?
Responding to an organized attack against ones’ country is a far cry from acting like the worlds’ police.
You’re a lying hypocritical fuckwad who isn’t worthy of licking the dirt-encrusted gum off the bottom of my shoe, as much as you’d love the job. What’s the matter, can’t make your asinine point without lying through your cum-rotted teeth? What a loser. Likes the idea of killing and thinks that makes him a man.
You know, I don’t really understand that one. That’s what people always say before a war–“Oh, we should give economic sanctions a chance to work”. But what U.S. policy towards Iraq is now decried by these same people as cruel and inhuman? Economic sanctions, of course. And, actually, they have a point–with modern technology, we can actually blow up specific buildings, but no one has yet developed a cruise missile that can selectively impose “economic sanctions”–i.e., cut people of from the flow of basic goods and services–on Saddam Hussein or Mullah Muhammed Omar and Osama bin Laden and not also impose “economic sanctions” on all the innocent men, women, and children who happen to share a country with whoever it is we’re targeting. Economic sanctions may not be violent in the blow things to smithereens sense, but they do cause suffering, and they’re a very blunt instrument with lots of “collateral damage”.
I just hope that the protesters take the time to watch “Beneath the Veil” today on CNN (4pm & 11pm ET). I have just seen excerpts so far, but I plan to watch it today. I think the peace protesters may find a more worthy cause.
Holy, shit is this getting ugly. Whatever happened to United We Stand and all that hoo-ha?
American peace protesters are still American, aren’t they. I would venture to say there isn’t a single one who wishes to give aid to “the enemy”, they simply consider peace a viable option, and violence to be an unacceptable solution.
They are speaking their minds in a most American way. I salute them.
And you know what, I salute anybody who protests anything in this country – no matter if I agree with them or not – because that is a walking, breathing, sign-carrying exhibition of what makes this country great. I don’t want that to change.
From our Constitution: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;*** or abridging the freedom of speech,*** or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
Bolding and italicizing mine (obviously).
I put to you that those who would express a desire to forcibly make protester shut up and agree with them are the most un-American among us.
Otto, you lice-ridden spawn of a syphilitic jackal, why don’t you use that shriveled piece of moldy fecal matter you call a brain?
Lying? Hypocritical? Back it up, you pathetic faggot! Where have I lied, you sad little troll? I have already said that I don’t want innocent people killed, but you’re just too fucking’ stupid to get that.
And yes, I am a man, more than can be said for a weak, little whiner like you.
Yeah, but I don’t think most (if any) of the people in this thread have been expressing that desire. Freedom of speech includes the right to criticize other people’s speech.
Even Fred Phelps picketting the funeral of a murdered gay person?
Scroll up and read what I said. Nobody wants to force anyone to shut up, for that is, indeed, un-American. However, I have no problem in exercising my freedom of speech and telling the peace protestors that they are so full of shit they squeak.