Penile Lengthening Column

SuaPointe, my father was circumcised as an adult while in the military in the early '50s. He says that there WAS pressure to be circumcised - they told him it would make him perform better sexually, there were even posters that said ‘It no longer makes a Jew of you’, that it was more hygienic. He wouldn’t have were it not for the pressure, but the time in the hospital was also an incentive (he was in for several weeks).

This was in the time of the Korean Conflict, I’m not sure if they were doing it during WWII, but it’s true that a LOT of servicemen were pressured into doing it in the military. My Dad had my older brother circumcised later, but they decided not to circumcise any other sons they had later after hearing his screams.

I stand corrected.

Sua

One situation where it might be an advantage to be circumcised might be on the battlefield. Hygiene is not a problem with uncircumcised penises, as long as you bathe fairly regularly and take a second to pull back the skin from the head when you wash it - but if I was in a wet trench somewhere and hadn’t taken a real bath in weeks, I would probably be more likely to get some kind of infection than a circumcised man.

  1. JDT projects that when we can genetically detect homosexuals, parents will abort them.

What the most vehement anti-gay group in America?
Radical Fundamentalists.

What the most vehement anti-abortion group in America?
Radical Fundamentalists.

If genetic testing for gayness becomes possible, fundamentalists will not abort the child. That would be murder in their eyes; murder of someone for what they may do in the future.

While there are some fundamentalists extreme enough to take that position, it is ludicrous to say ‘most’ American’s would do so.

If fundamentalists accepted the genetic diagnosis (unlikely… fundamentalist rarely admit that homosexuality is genetic) they would try to ‘fix’ their child, not kill it.

–John

Yes, they did it during WWII. My dad was circumcised as an adult upon entering the service. :eek: Didn’t seem to hinder him from fathering five children, though.

Hold on. One moment. I have to collect myself (and all the little bits and pieces I have lying around that my pediatrician missed while sweeping up).

Howls of derisive laughter. Whoo. Ha. OK. I think I’m getting there.

No shit? Really?

Cue National Anthem! I have this image of Jack standing in front of an American flag (with 15 square inches missing, of course), holding his severed foreskin in the air as a warning to the rest of the world.

If this is the defender of truth, I’m beginning to question the wisdom of fighting ignorance at all…

jab noted:

I can’t imagine what could possibly make me prouder than to know that Jack supports skepticism.

Well, except if perhaps he actually showed it by acting in a rational manner…

He’ll always shlep on down for a wedding or a briss
They say he’s got a lot chutzpah and he’s really quite hhhhhip
The parents pay the moyl and he gets to keep the tip!

– Weird Al Yankovic, “Pretty Fly for a Rabbi”

I don’t understand, I have always found a woman likes it straight, curved, what ever as long as there was a good tongue lashing first! It is ALL sensitive all over!All the time! Just ask her!

I have a question, Jack. You’re proposing that we spend 900 billion dollars a year to right this terrible wrong and repair (as best we can) the horrors done by circumcision. By my rough calculations, that works out to around $6,000 per male per year.

I’m circumsized, and it’s never bothered me. But I tell you what – you send me $6K every year, and I promise that every night I’ll have my lovely wife stretch my foreskin for a while.

I want to contribute something to this “Great Debate”, but I don’t understand what the debate is. Usually a debate is a pro/con sort of thing, but this is just someone spouting unfounded babble about a topic. Oh, well- if anyone cares, my opinion is that if you don’t want a circumcision, don’t have one! Or, when circumcisions are outlawed, only outlaws will have circumcisions. Something like that.

Oh, and the bit about spending 1/2 of the national budget on research of this “very important issue”? If THAT statement doesn’t tell us roughly what we’re dealing with here (troll? child? other?), I don’t know WHAT does.

By the way, am I the only one who almost retched at this line:

MUST you use the term “peeled”? It conjures up images so gross to me, I cannot explain it. How about “moved” back? ::shudder::

Then again, I’ve only ever been with cut men, so what do I know. Frankly, I’d take my husband- the best giver of oral sex on the planet- over penis play, (cut or uncut) ANY day of the week. Penis play and procreation is fine, but all I really want is a good tongue lashing and to go to sleep. Your milage may vary.

Oh, and Esprix- I hope you’re kidding when you say “repressed” homosexual. This man spends countless hours studying mens penises in the name of “research” regarding the evils of circumcision? We don’t even need to page Dr. Freud to call that one.

Zette

And you will notice that JDT still has not told us if he is circumcised or if he hates Mumsie and Pater for having him cut.

FYI: I am cut.

5 1/2 inches when on duty.

Piping in on the side of the DEBATE

I don’t see how one can support Circumcision in males and be against FGM, there is no difference (except degree in some cases). Genital Mutilation is Genital Mutilation.

The only valid argument on the pro side that I’ve seen in this debate is a reference to a study on how circumcision can possibly reduce the incidence of penile cancer to a small degree. I think that even that is not a strong case to regularly mutilate babies’ genitals.

Yes, it appears we have a fanatic in our midst, but fanatics can be a driving force for change. I don’t agree with some of his personal attacks and some of his conjecture, but how can one disagree on the basic issue?

CheapBastid, I haven’t seen anyone in this thread arguing that circumcision must or even should be done.

I, for one, have stated repeatedly that I find circumcisions to be unnecessary and I do not intend to circumcise any male children I might have.

Nevertheless, there are fundamental differences between female “circumcision” and male. I do not see it as merely a matter of degree, though I see that you do. No worries. Unlike some other folks I could name, I don’t expect everyone to agree with me.

I do understand that the range in degree of mutilation is vast in the FGM category, but in the case where the clitoral hood is removed it is not only analogous but pretty equivalent to male circumcision.

I know that you’re not arguing for Circumcision, but I don’t know why the outrage should be any less. Are you arguing that degree is important when deciding if one should participate in the mutilation of babies’ genitalia?

edwino,

> OK Jack. Here is all it takes. I’ll do you a favor. Here is a nice, balanced discussion in a peer reviewed journal. <

There can be no "balanced discussion" on circumcision because no one has ever studied the physiology of the foreskin. All that can happen under the best circumstances is a balanced discussion of the experimental results of having amputated a lot of foreskins. You're mixing apples and oranges.

> It comes down on your side. Maybe if you see what a legitimate cite is, then you can go and do it yourself… The American Association of Pediatricians’ Task Force on Circumcision <

The AAP may come down on my side, but it's position is a crock of ****, anyway. In the first place, there can be little doubt that attorneys had as much input on this paper as any researcher. The message that is being sent is the following: STOP CIRCUMCISION NOW ! ! ! The reason that this message is being sent out in such a cryptic manner is to protect the medical establishment from financial liability. IOW's, money is more important than protecting babies from this attack.

> Madre dios, Jack. Again, you use your psychic abilities, this time to tell me what I am going to do in the future. <

No, I'm know what many doctors tell the parents. I've dealt often with people who talk as you do. That's experience that I'm using to make an educated guess as to what you will do. I mean, it's not as if you took any offense when I listed off several of the very obvious things that you should be informing parents of, and said that you would not give the parents this Info.

> After I criticize circumcision. After I say I will give a balanced, unbiased statement on circumcision. <

I read everything that you said. I want to hear some of the precise points that you are going to bring up to the parents in order to make them understand what a circumcision is. Are you going to give me any of those points?

> One question – do you see the lunacy in your argument? <

No, I don't see that my argument is lunacy. No one is showing me how my argument is invalid or unsound. You're simply dragging red herrings all over the place.

> Here’s a tip : Try to avoid statements starting like "Oh, I think that when you are a pediatrician, you will do (fill in the blank). <

No, I think I will go ahead an make a few educated guesses as to what you will and won't say to parents of newborns. You can correct me if I'm wrong. How's that?

> The foreskin is intensely studied, if because it is the source of many lab fibroblast cultures.<

It hasn't been studied at all.

> People know all the tissue types in there. <

No, of course, they don't. They know that there are stem cells, of course, because that is what is being sold on the open market. They may know a few other details that come up as a result of harvesting these baby's foreskins, also.

>PubMed doesn’t do well with links, but I can give you 100 studies in 20 seconds about penile physiology. I’m gonna try a PubMed link, I don’t know if it will work. 107 articles about the foreskin physiology. <

These are not "studies" of the foreskin. These are apparently various doctors giving their opinions on the foreskin. When I say that the foreskin needs to be studied, I am saying that we should know every nerve, nerve receptor, and every other cell, every type of tissue and system and the exact function of all of these things. Are you trying another red herring here?

> 39 studies about cervical cancer and circumcision. Some are reviews, some are primary. <

Show me the one best study that concludes that an intact penis is more likely to transmit the HPV virus, please. OK?

>I’m not going to push Jewish law on even my Jewish patients before I push self-determination and good health. Until I have good data for or against, I will not push an issue at all. <

This isn't true based upon what you have already said. You'll carry out a circumcision even though you are obviously lacking enough data as to what amount of damage you're doing. You can't know what amount of damage you're doing since the foreskin has never been studied.

> Why? Because they weren’t studying that. They were doing a study of ejaculation rates. If you interview 10,000 people, you can’t ask them every question. For you, it is an important question. So go do the study. <

The researchers were studying how well everyone is having sex. When one is doing research on anything, one always includes data on anything that might affect the subject in order to do a statistical correction. Haven't you even learned that with all of your education?

> In my book, if it isn’t peer-reviewed, it isn’t worth the paper on which it is written. Most scientists feel the same. <
Translation: the medical research establishment has to carry out the study because they are the only ones who can get the massive funding that is necessary. Problem: research on the foreskin is taboo amongst the medical establishment. So, by your logic, we will never know anything about the foreskin.

> Fruit fly eyes are actually much more fascinating. <

"Fruit fly eyes" are more interesting that the most erogenous part of a man's body. I shudder to even think about the damage you suffered at the hands of your aggressors.

> OK. What organization is covering this up? <

When I say Jewish establishment, I am talking about any organization involved with persecuting those that in any way threaten the Jewish agenda. The Jewish agenda would be protecting the billions of dollars that go to Israel every year. And, the Jewish agenda would be teaching "tolerance" to the world. In order to carry out this agenda, the Jewish establishment has been astonishingly successful at making the term anti-Semite almost the most terrible label for any American to acquire second only to the label of Nazi. So, everyone is afraid to study the foreskin for fear getting labeled an anti-Semite. And, that's how America got sexually mutilated.

> If there is such a wealth of data and hundreds of millions of men affected, it would take quite a large-scale cover-up, donchathink? <

Oh very large-scale indeed. The conspirators are right here in this forum. In fact, you are one of them. Think about it. You've had a good portion of your penis amputated against your will. You don't know what was taken. There's no research that you can refer to in order to know. Where's your outrage? Oh, you hedge this way and that. You don't necessarily support circumcision, blah, blah. If you could be rational on the matter, the shear fact that you don't know what was taken would cause extreme discomfort to say the least. You know now that you can't get back what was taken so you know that you'll have to make the best of it. You can't face the possibility that something very special was taken so you then do the unthinkable, you protect your attackers. If you protect them, then nothing bad could have happened to you, right? So, we don't really have a conspiracy, but we do have a defacto conspiracy.

> Interviews get pulled all the time. Dave Letterman doesn’t get to interview the world’s fastest grocery sacker because Emeril was out too long. Sometimes, the interview just doesn’t go well. What evidence do you have that it was specifically pulled because of its content? How do you know it wasn’t a coincidence? Do you have evidence of more than just this one event? <
My understanding is that the interview was pulled on orders from New York. This is an LA show. My understanding is that it was a corporate decision. The Leeza show wasn’t a news show and corporate can control content there.

weirddave,
> I am a heterosexual male. I can tell you with unequivocal certainty, that were such a test possible, and 100% accurate, I wouldn’t even consider an abortion. What kind of sick fuck would you have to be to do that? <
What if you could control the sexual orientation of your child before conception? Would then choose to have your child be gay?

Jack is assuming that everyone responding to him is disagreeing with him on the issue. Most of us seem to be disagreeing with his debating tactics or his factual claims – not with the underlying issue. I joined the thread when he made flatly preposterous claims about the Constitution.

Esprix,

> Dear, dear Jack - you skipped right over my most important question! It was, of course: Are you a repressed homosexual? I’m ever so curious… <

I'd suggest you take an ice-cold shower.

Alessan,

> Oh, I could go on about how you discarded 2000 years of politics, religion, ethnicity, customs and economics in favor of your grand little theory. <

Maybe you should question what you were taught. Did that ever occur to you?

> I could talk about the absurdity of your claim that Jews are inherently more violent than the Cossacks, Crusaders and Nazis who’ve slaughtered us over the years. <

Other researchers have put forth the thesis that circumcision leads to a propensity for violence. Not all Jews practice circumcision.

> I could debate your statement that virtually no man I’ve ever known has ever enjoyed sex. <

I never said this.

> I could be enraged by the fact that you’ve insulted my country, my religion, my family, my friends, my former comrades in arms. <

If the shoe fits  . . .

> You’re not even that amusing. <

At least we agree on one thing.

> Just hope we never meet in person. I’m liable to get mideastern on your ass. <

Circumciser, heal thyself.

SuaSponte,

> Please cite (not that I expect you to do it). I did a Google search and uncovered nothing. The three problems I have with this claim are: <

You can study Bud Berkeley's "Foreskin: A Closer Look" and that will give you a lot of Info. on this.

> 1. The dumbest thing in the world the U.S. Army could do before sending troops off to fight Hitler would be to circumcise them, thus risking the non-Jews among the troops for being misidentified as Jews if captured, and then sent to concentration camps; <

Maybe it was done to camouflage the Jewish American soldiers. In any case, during WW II, it was generally circumcision or court-martial. In units where it wasn't a requirement, sometimes intact men would still wake up from surgery to correct their combat wounds and find out that they had also been circumcised.
On the plus side, two or three years ago, the American armed forces stopped recording circumcision status amongst recruits. Some military hospitals won't even do circumcisions anymore.

> 2. I just can’t picture millions of American boys, even under military discipline, willingly undergoing circumcision as adults; and <

Neither can I. Call me a fanatic (and I know you have), but I'd take the court-martial and the dishonorable discharge first. They'd call me a traitor, but I'd have my foreskin.

> 3. What possible military rationale would there be for this? <

Well, it can be a little bit disturbing when an intact man is in a dessert combat situation. Grains of sand can get under the foreskin. However, the foreskin is very easy to clean in combat. All an intact man has to do is just exactly what animals do. It's called a "piss-wash." The intact man just has to pinch his foreskin close and urinate inside his foreskin thereby causing his foreskin to balloon up. Then he opens his foreskin and it is flushed out. Urine is sterile.