I didn’t mean to single you out, and I believe you offered that advice in a sincere spirit of helpfulness, I just don’t think it quite gets to the heart of the matter. Not everyone knows what looks good (or more specifically, what looks good to others (or even more specifically, what will look good to a potential SO should we be lucky enough to encounter him/her)). Not all of us pick up on the social cues and feedback to nurture a potential relationship along. Too hot, too cold, just right; some of us can’t tell. Makes it really hard to figure out what you’re doing wrong and improve. And the next time will be a whole different set of circumstances so you’re starting from square one anyway.
I think it is an aptitude that some of us don’t have. Not to say that, with a lot of work, one can’t improve. Social cues, especially those romantic in nature, are a complete mystery to me. It’s like doing something mechanical with my hands, or doing algebra. Someone can show me how it’s done, and it makes perfect sense. I try to repeat it with the circumstances only differing a minuscule amount, and I make a mess of it. It’s not anyone’s fault; it is what it is. The only time I’ve placed blame on someone is when I felt I was led on, and that’s still mostly on me. And being used by someone who used an insecure 15 year old as a front for her parents so she could keep seeing someone her parents disapproved of; that one was not so much on me. The key is, as robot arm said, that it’s a little different each time. For some of us that really is going back to square one. It took being picked of a crowd by someone who saw something they liked about at first sight. That, and I was next to the keg. I’m sure the skills can be learned, but it takes a huge amount of work and plenty of the right kind of help.
Some people, myself included, are also very concrete. Something vague like “you’ve got to love yourself before anyone loves you” sounds great, but it’s not advice. It’s a saying, and it’s not even accurate. There are plenty of self-hating, neurotic people who have a SO.
I also think it goes back to the eternal discussion of how best to commiserate with someone. Some people really are looking for advice ont how to fix themselves, and they will say so explicitly. While others are just looking for sympathy and assurances (and why this is looked down upon by so many, I don’t know). And then there’s the broad middle ground of people who are looking for all of the above, plus they may be receptive to hearing advice on how to cope with the feelings themselves. IMHO, that’s where a role model would be useful. Someone who says something like, “Yeah, I know what you’re going through and it really is shitty, isn’t it? But once I graduated from college and got out of the whole “youth” scene and started being around more mature people, I started feeling better about myself. It does get better, I promise.”
The “it gets better” stuff seems to be working with gay and lesbian kids. It would be interesting to see if suicides rates have dropped any since the campaign took off.
Mechanical stuff? Algebra? Piece o’ cake. Hell, I can park my car in an airport garage, leave and come in through a different door, and walk directly back to where I parked. Not expecting to sweep any woman off her feet with those skills, though.
I sometimes wonder if admitting to virginity is anything like coming out of the closet. I don’t expect any pride parades in the near future.
You didn’t just read it wrong, you did the exact thing she’s complaining about. It’s like you didn’t read the OP at all. The subject of this thread is how hard it is to find anyone to commiserate with the people who have these problems. How, with every other human foible, there are roll models who had the same problems.
Yet here you are blaming her for the problem, treating her like some 10-year-old who doesn’t know how to interact with other people. Everyone knows that you try to look your best and get out and be around people in order to date. That’s not some hidden revelation. That clearly is not enough for a lot of people.
Your type of advice is exactly why the whole PUA movement started. It had to be some sort of secret, since everyone follows this advice and yet it doesn’t work for everyone.
And, yeah, monstro, that’s where I relate to your OP. The stuff that does exist to appeal to this demographic all sucks. The PUA community are the people who claim they were just like you and they overcame it by using these special tips that you can pay $100 to learn. They commiserate with you. And these guys are making money hand over fist.
There are a lot of these people out there, and they are so easily exploited because it’s taboo to even talk about this sort of thing.
I’d actually say, monstro, that women have it better. A guy probably wouldn’t be able to make that post. Sure, women have to deal with the men who think women have it easy, but men have to deal with the men who treat them poorly and the women who make threads about how virginity is a deal breaker for them.
BigT, I have no doubt that it sucks for men. But it also sucks for women.
I have two cats. I love them to death, but I’m not a crazy cat lady. I don’t wear t-shirts with cats emblazoned on them. I don’t have pictures of them in my office. I don’t even talk about them that much…or at least not anymore than anyone else talks about their pets. This is intentional because I DON’T want to be seen as the crazy cat lady. And yet, when I’m with a group and everyone’s talking about their love life or their children (the latter being by far the most common “social” topic for women my age), someone inevitably will call me out as the “crazy cat lady” because I’m not chiming in with my own stories. Even my boss does this to me, and I have never talked to my cats with my boss. It’s hurtful, but you CAN’T show your hurt feelings, because then not only do you get called “crazy cat lady”, you get called “bitter and angry”. Even when you are neither. So you laugh and say “good one” and keep up the image that you a fine upstanding person (like Incubus’s sister-in-laws). So, women also have to bottle their feelings. Just not as much as men do.
And yes, Urbanredneck did miss the point, as did Magiver. But again, it’s considered poor form to get angry about stuff like that, because after all they’re just trying to be helpful. Gotta keep up the positive image, right?
Monstro, I think you have this backward. Married people can relate to you, because at one point or another they have been single. You can’t relate to married people because you haven’t been married, and you’re failing to put effort into understanding them.
You’re treating being single like being gay, some unchanging state of existence that a person has no choice to be in. People that are single choose to be that way.
You act like you have nothing in common with people that are married or with kids, but it sounds more like you have a hard time connecting with people that aren’t exactly like you. For you to say in your OP that nobody is like me says more about your issues connecting with other people, rather than their issues connecting to you. Both my wife and I were single at some point, yet somehow we didn’t have a problem relating to people that were in relationships or married.
You imply a 17 year old girl who is single doesn’t have anybody to look up to. Everybody has been single at some point.
In fairness, there was this pigeon…
monstro, that was a very illuminating and insightful post. Thanks for sharing it.
Unless all these married people were once 36-year-old virgins with no interest in dating or family-making, no, they can’t relate to me. They may think they can because their favorite great-aunt Mary was a life-long spinster. But they would be wrong.
I can relate to people who are in relationships just fine. If I couldn’t do this at least a little bit, I wouldn’t be able to socialize at all. But it’s a one-sided “relatedness”. I can ask a married person a ton of questions about their life without them ever feeling like I’m poking fun at them or pathologizing them. But the reverse never happens. When I telll someone about my life, the first thing out of their mouth is advice. Or pity. Or a recommendation to go to a doctor.
I haven’t chosen anything. The only thing I’ve “chosen” is to refuse to think there’s something wrong with me just because I don’t live my life like everyone else. And yet people won’t stop telling me I’m wrong. And then when I don’t want to be around them, I get scolded for that.
Unlike you apparently, I do think there are people who are socially handicapped through no fault of their own. Maybe they have a medical condition. Maybe not. But these people are not “choosing” anything, not anymore than a dyslexic chooses to be unable to read. Yet even you wouldn’t stoop so low as to make fun of a dyslexic.
I’m not acting like this at all. I have disclosed that I feel weird around these people on occasion, and why the hell wouldn’t I? It is weird to be around people who are talking about experiences that you’ve never had and can’t even imagine, and having to pretend that you understand, just so you can be a part of the conversation. And it IS weird to have to listen to unsolicited advice while wearing a smile because you don’t want to be “bitter and angry” like the other losers. Sorry if you can’t understand why these feelings may exist in a person, but I have to question your own emotional inteligence if this so unfathomable to you.
Are you an asexual black woman with Tourette’s Syndrome, who is surrounded by nothing but married and dating people? If you are a heterosexual white married male, and I believe you are, then you have absolutely NO right to belittle my feelings of alienation.
I mean, shit! I pay my taxes. I go to work every day with a smile on my face, and I make a great living. I’m friendly to people even when I’d rather withdraw. I volunteer and show compassion to others. I have an excellent sense of humor and accept teasing like the good-natured person I aim to be. And yet I am not even allowed to express a single negative emotion without it being a sign of a moral failure or character weakness.
It would be nice for that girl to have a person to look up to who does not have a SO and is PERFECTLY FINE WITH THIS. All the people she sees are dating or married or trying to do both. Of course she’s going to feel like a loser if she’s not involved in the game. OF COURSE she’s going to despair that her life is destined for misery if she doesn’t have a boyfriend. She has no image to counter this.
She has plenty of people to look up to. But they’re all messaging the same thing. IF YOU DON’T HAVE A MAN, YOU’RE NOTHING.
People like Eliot Rogers need treatment. I wish you hadn’t invoked his name in an otherwise poignant and revealing topic.
FWIW, people in your situation, monstro, would do well to look to you as their role model.
You don’t think there are people who were 17 that are single and worry they might never meet someone? Really? It’s that rare? Because last I checked, I was in that boat, as well as my wife, my friends, hell all of my peers.
I think you’re missing the point, Incubus. 17 is not the same as 38.
Do you think 30, 40 or 50-year-old “losers” weren’t once miserable self-hating 17-year-olds? Do you think every teenager finds themselves out of singlehood just by listening to the advice they get from strangers on the internet?
Maybe there wouldn’t be so many people stuck in crappy relationships if they had learned early on in their lives that there is absolutely no shame in being single. That teenaged girl weeping about how no one loves her may become the future wife of an abuser, and a mother a bunch of kids she in turn abuses. Just because she was never shown that there is an alternative path in life.
QuickSilver, thanks for the kind words. I’m regretting that I mentioned Rodger, but I didn’t know how else to frame the discussion. People keep saying we need to shore up our mental health services, and I agree. I have availed myself of counseling and it really does make a difference. But the truth is that a psychotherapist can only do so much. Elliot turned to support on the internet because his psychotherapists weren’t good enough. As long as we’re pointing fingers at mental health services, why not extend it to society in general. Everyone on the internet offering up crappy advice, whether it be PUA or “stop whining”, needs to share in the blame.
I think you’re right. But it sounds like the girl you’re talking about wants an SO, right? She doesn’t have one, and that is where much of her despair is coming from. You don’t want an SO, so it’s going to be easier for you thrive in the absence of one.
Single people do feel angst because they feel unusually “freaky” in their singleness. But collectively, more of their angst comes from not having the intimacy that is lacking in their life (I can attest to this as an expert), and feeling hopeless because of that perceived deficiency. They don’t want to be assured that they can survive a lifetime of singleness. They want to be assured that one day they will have what they crave. If you’re hungry, you want the promise of a hamburger. If you’re not hungry and are actually fine with no food, promises of a hamburger are only going to annoy you. I think you’re conflating the former with the latter.
This is why people fall into the habit of telling unhappy single people that they won’t be alone forever, your hero will come one day, keep your chin up, etc. Because most people crave relationships and they can only speak from that perspective. I’m not sure if this is an issue of you disagreeing with these “bromides” or not relating to them personally, but I think they are just as valid as assuring someone that they can be happy alone. Different people need to hear different things, and it’s not always clear what one person needs.
Treating single people in a condescending fashion is a different matter, IMO.
I’m not even sure the girl’s wanting an SO is the main issue. Rather, the impression I get is that she’s taking it as a symptom of her being (or feeling like she is) unattractive, unaccepted, and unpopular.
You are way over thinking this. You shouldn’t display any hurt feelings over this but there’s no reason to laugh and play along if it bothers you.
Think of it like this: there are plenty of poor people who want to be rich. Because all they see on TV is people driving nice cars and living in nice houses, and they hear all these other subtle messages about how poor people suck and rich people have it made.
Don’t you think if these people knew poor people who weren’t insecure about their lack of wealth, who were able to find happiness in ways other than driving fancing cars and living in fancy mansions, they wouldn’t feel like their own situations were that horrible?
I don’t think a “role model” would be the type of person who wouldn’t be able to relate to the hungry feeling you’re talking about. In fact, they’d tell the person, “Hey, dude, I know how it feels to feel hungry and not be able to get what you want.” But instead of adding something like, “But one day your dream girl or guy will come!” they will say, “What I do when I’m having cravings is X, Y, or Z. Or, when I feel alienated because all my friends have burgers and I don’t, I tell myself A, B, or C.” This is not the kind of advice a person readily thinks to offer to someone unless they are going through it themselves.
I understand why this happens, and I’m not saying that “keep your chin up” is bad advice. But if I’m an older guy and I’ve followed everyone’s advice and things still aren’t happening for me and I just need a safe place to vent because no one in the real world wants to hear me be anything other than glowing and positive, then “keep your chin up and stop being so glum” is crappy. It’s well-intentioned, but it’s neither sympatheti, empathic, or productive.
It is true that the teenager mentioned in the OP does not count as “older”. But the thread isn’t just about young teenagers.
I take no responsibility for the actions of Elliot Rodger. I don’t even think his actions really had anything to do with him being single. Monstro said she thinks in concrete terms, and I think she may be taking the circumstances a little too literally. He is using his feelings of rejection and singlehood as an excuse. This guy isn’t a victim in any way shape or form. He isn’t some tragic Batman villain acting out of revenge. Both my wife and I agree he needed counseling, and a lack if mental health resources are definitely a problem in the US.
I don’t think Monstro would be the best role model for a girl who thinks she’s never going to meet someone in their life. She doesn’t take ownership for her own problems and doesn’t seem to find the common element in all her complaints about interacting with people at work- herself.
Now, before you jump on me for being big meanie, I think Monstro would be an excellent role model for a kid struggling in school and wrapped up in a lot of social drama. She didn’t let that hold her back, she worked very hard and finished grad school; in comparison I barely got my bachelor’s and drive a bus for a living 
. She’d be better at guiding people to persist in their education than I would.
I still believe being single is a choice, the same way not having a college education is a choice. You can claim there are all these insurmountable obstacles in the way, but what’s really a factor is how much effort you are willing to put into achieving that goal.