I’m a good role model for anyone who has been diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome or Schizoid PD, who thinks that because they have a scary label, this means they are a scary person. I can show them this isn’t true at all and remind them that labels are just short-hand, meant to be discarded when they aren’t useful.
I’m a good role model for someone who is not afraid to be who she is, on her own terms, but is willing to also change and grow.
I’m a good role model for people who don’t particularly like socializing, but still want to get along with people and experience the tangible benefits that come with this.
Finally, I’m a good role model for anyone who has to regularly deal with internet fucknuts. I know how to let shit roll off my back, but I also know how to assert myself and let fucknuts know that’s indeed what they are, just in case they’re confused.
I find it interesting that you would get unsolicited advice on this subject. I’m in somewhat the same boat as you (hope posts about my experience aren’t hijacking this thread) and the subject pretty much never comes up.[sup]*[/sup] I mean, I have some close friends who know how frustrating my romantic efforts have been, but I sometimes wonder if they know exactly how non-existent they have been. Among not-so-close friends (or my family, actually) it just never gets mentioned. No advice, or pity, or recommendations to go to a doctor; just nothing at all. I’m never sure if my social failings are so obvious that no one even bothers to comment on them, or if I have them so fooled they never think to mention it.
I’ve had PM conversations with other dopers who have been helpful and supportive, and if any of you are reading this you have my sincere thanks. But real life is very different from the anonymity of a message board.
Robot Arm, it may be just me or maybe it’s a gender thing (or a combination of both). Some people see me, I think, and think I’d be perfect if only I would do __, not thinking that I have a different plan for myself than what they think my plan should be. I have a coworker who once told me that no man was ever going to think I was cute if I continued to wear my Tevas. What can a person do in such a situation, but smile and laugh it off? But sometimes I just don’t want to hear that kind of stuff. I just want to be around people and have them at least pretend that I’m fine the way I am.
(I consider this coworker a friend now. We’ve gotten to the point where she can say stuff like this to me and I’ll tell her to shut up and we’ll both laugh.)
I knew about Bronte and Rossetti (who was engaged three times, so maybe she doesn’t count?), but I did not know either Noether or Franklin was unmarried before looking them up, even though I’d known about both of them since high school. They’re awesome for other reasons (and I bet they’d prefer it that way, too).
And yet… I am starting to get monstro’s point, now. It would be nice for someone who is not into relationships to know that Emmy Noether exists, to be able to point to her and say, hey, look, she was totally happy kicking butt at math, she didn’t need a guy (or a girl) to Give Her Life Meaning – the same way that Noether is often used as a role model for females-in-math. Even though her work transcends her gender as well as her sexuality (as it should). (I’m a Noether fangirl, can you tell?)
Wow, I’ve never known anyone to consider Tevas a turnoff. I seldom heard that I needed to change anything beyond having some confidence in myself. My parents, God bless 'me, refused to believe I ever asked anyone out. They couldn’t believe their kid was being rejected.
This is why I teach Taekwondo. It’s not just for kids.
If you will PM me your zip code, I’ll look to see if there are any schools in my organization near you. If there are, may I suggest that you check them out? Martial arts training will change your life.
Hmmm. I can relate a bit to the OP, at the very least I can put my own spin on it.
Back in my 20s I was more attractive and was surrounded by single women, but I was unable to connect to people for various reasons, so I would sabotage anything before it got past the flirting stage. As I got older and worked on myself in therapy, I was able to get close to people but now all the single women are gone. Some people say ‘try internet dating’ but the sad reality of internet dating is that for most men it is a downward spiral of lowering your standards and being ignored until you give up. When I had options I couldn’t close the deal, now that I can close the deal the options are all gone. I have some relationship and sexual/romantic experience, but not a ton. That isn’t the point though, the real problem is all the assumptions we make about people who lack the socially defined minimum level of dating/sexual/romantic experience.
I remember a thread a few months ago where the topic was ‘would you date someone who had almost no relationship experience’. The consensus among most people was ‘yes, but it depends on why they have no experience’. There is a meme that if you have less relationship experience than is deemed the mandatory minimum (which can be as little as 1 long term relationship), then you are somehow defective, emotionally damaged, unlovable, sexually/romantically invisible at best and repulsive at worst. I’ve met people who met someone in high school and stayed with them. They had one relationship and they are not deemed defective by society. But find someone the same age (maybe 40) who only had a 2 month relationship over their entire life and they are deemed defective, unlovable, damaged, valueless on the sexuality/romantic marketplace. Even though both people only have one relationship and I"ve met tons of people who were damaged who were in relationships (either a single one or serial daters). There is this meme that there is some unspoken mandatory minimum amount of dating/relationship/sexual experience you are supposed to have by age X, and if you do not have it you are automatically assumed to be crazy, disgusting, boring, valueless, etc.
For me my biggest fear getting older is that I will want to escape the judgments against me and I will settle for something bad. There is this stupid voice in my head that says ‘she may be selfish, verbally abusive, have 4 kids and can’t support herself financially, but its better than being subtly and sometimes not so subtly judged as valueless, repulsive and unlovable by friends, family and coworkers’. For me its not even ‘not dying alone’ that bothers me. Loneliness is about quality, not quantity. I think for me the fear is being labeled by everyone who knows me as defective, unlovable, unworthy, having no sexual/romantic value and wanting to hide from those judgments by getting into any relationship so I can meet those mandatory minimum standards of how much dating/sexual/romantic experience I’m supposed to have, even if it is a very low quality relationship that makes me miserable and broke.
When I was younger, my big fear was never having a relationship. As I get older my big fear is settling for a terrible one to avoid social stigma. There are no positive role models for people willing to stand up to that stigma.
I deal with adolescents a lot. I always try to impress upon them, that when they leave high school and they’re adults with jobs or they’re in college, they will *reinvent *themselves. Anyone who doesnt, ends up at their high school reunion 10, 20 years later. But they don’t have to. If they wish to reinvent themselves, the opportunity is open–you become anything and everything you wish to become.
I don’t know. Maybe it’s simplistic. But if it gets them through the teenage years, rock on.
For me, it’s the only way I made it through a frustrating education and social life in Appalachia. I kept in mind that I could go anywhere. And I did.
It is a bit of a self-perpetuating sort of issue. I don’t think Elliot Rodger was old enough to really be on the downside of the curve yet, though.
There’s some truth to that, but I don’t think a complete and utter reinvention is possible. Maybe you can become anything you want, but what you want is informed by who you are.
It is self perpetuating, but my point was that the desire to escape the negative stigma can drive people to do stupid things. My big fear is jumping into a miserable relationship out of a desire to escape all the subtle and not subtle insults. I ‘think’ that is what **Monstro **was getting at with how there are no positive images for people who have less than the minimum amount of dating/sexual experience by age X that society has deemed necessary to prove one has value.
Exactly, Wesley! I’m glad someone can figure out what I’m trying to say.
Social pressure isn’t just what people say. It’s everything. The other day in my yoga class (of all places), the yoga instructor told us to close our eyes and imagine how happy we felt when we first fell in love. Everyone started to giggle and laugh and smile–which was her intention. Meanwhile, I was sitting there feeling all those negative feelings that yoga is supposed to help me get respite from.
The thought did cross my mind that I could fix all of this right now by going to a bar and picking up the first guy who looks at me. I know how to get dolled up. I know how to play act like I’m halfway cool. I wouldn’t fall in love with him, to be sure. But at least it would make me feel like I’m at least somewhat like everyone else…that I’m not such a loser so as to have never experienced the general outline of romantic love.
Yes, I do think lots of people hook up with abusive SO’s because they can’t imagine happiness as a singleton. They may actually be unhappy, but they console themselves with the thought they are better off with someone, any someone, than without. It takes a very strong person to oppose the social forces that perpetuate this idea.
My point was that Rodger was only 22; that’s not ridiculously old to still be a virgin. On the other hand, maybe it is near the age when the pressure is worst. Get past the college years and people stop making such a big deal about it.
As to getting into a miserable relationship to escape the insults, don’t be too afraid. People with plenty of experience, who have every reason to know better, get into miserable relationships every day. I don’t believe that anybody, anywhere, can guarantee that their new romance won’t turn sour. It’s always gonna be a risk. I’m just a little more worried about never taking the risk than I am about screwing it up.
I think there is a difference between internalizing and not internalizing the social stigma. When I was younger I internalized it, now that I"m older I do not as much. As a result I do not personally believe being single is the same thing as being alone (I still have family and friends), nor do I feel I am repulsive despite me having almost no dating options. However the external stigma still affects me and the desire to escape by entering any relationship just so I can hold it up to society and say ‘I’m meeting the minimum standards of how much romantic/sexual/relationship experience I’m supposed to have at age X’ is something I worry about. I’ve already dated a few women I knew were serious trouble but managed to talk myself into it just because I want to avoid the stigma. Was I dating for the wrong reason? Yes. Do I open myself up to sanctimonious judgment by people who consider themselves morally superior by saying that? Yes. But it is still true, and a lot of people do it. Lots of people. The difference is because I don’t internalize the stigma I’m not doing it as intensely.
One good thing about getting experience is that you realize its not all that great. It is one thing to disdain something you’ve never tried, but to get it and realize its not that great is eye opening. Sometimes you have to get what you think you are supposed to want, other people want you to want or that you actually want to realize that what you actually want is not that.
I’ve heard from best to worst (for people who seek a relationship that is, this excludes disinterested asexuals like Monstro):
A good relationship
Being single
A bad relationship
I think there are certain levels to stigma. I’m certain people way smarter than me have figured this out, but I don’t know who they are or where to find their work. Kind of like how Gandhi said ‘first they ignore you, then laugh at you, then fight you, then you win’ kind of thing. Each one has different levels of being taken seriously by society.
If you are a stigmatized group, at first there are no positive role models. You are ignored or made into a joke. Then there are positive models, but they have to overcompensate to be ‘good enough’ to make up forfor all the repulsive and defective traits ascribed to them. Then there are situations where people know they are supposed to judge and reject them, but they choose not to. Finally people don’t even think about the supposed negative traits.
Example: as you say there are no positive role models for people who lack the socially mandated minimum relationship/sexual experience.
In the 1960s when ‘guess whos coming to dinner’ came out, it was about racial stigma. The fact that Sidney Poitier’s character was a brilliant doctor with an excellent personality was supposed to overcompensate for the stigma of being black. Or the movie ‘shallow hal’ about the obese women who overcompensates for her defectiveness with having a heart of gold. A person can’t just show up and be black or fat, they have to overcompensate for the negativity associated with that. So they have to have an amazing personality, or be a brilliant physician. They can’t be regular schmoes.
Then maybe you get media stories where the storyline is basically 'I know I’m supposed to find you disgusting, defective and repulsive but I don’t. I can’t name any offhand, but I’m sure it is common.
Then finally people just stop caring. Like anti-irish prejudice. I was shocked when I was little and first learned about anti-Irish prejudice in the Us. I never even noticed who was Irish or not the same way that in 100 years people probably won’t notice who is gay or not (ideally).
I’d be happy just to get a few role models, Wesley. I don’t really expect people not to care at all, because sexual experience is one factor (among many) that can indicate compatibility between two people. (Though I would be fine with the whole “loser” stigma disappearing).
I know people have come up with a handful of examples of role models here. But they aren’t quite the same as someone who is well-known now, who doesn’t resemble the nerdy/geeky/socially inept/pigeon-infactuated stereotypes. We need someone who is solidly cool. Someone who says, “The hell I know what it likes to fall in love! I’m too busy doing [fill in the cool activity of your choice] to think about stuff like that!” Of course, I can tell myself that when I need to hear it. But it would be nice to hear someone else say it too. Someone who isn’t as dorky as I am!
I actually have been in love, I wouldn’t recommend it. It can be a destructive drug (addictive, blinding), just one that society only obsesses over the positive aspects of (unlike all our recreational drugs where we only obsess over the negative aspects).
As far as your statement that a role model would be someone who was too busy doing cool stuff to have relationships, to me that kindof ties into what I was saying earlier. I don’t think a role model (ideally) should have to overcompensate. That is like a gay person, black person, fat person, etc saying ‘yeah I’m part of this rejected group but I am superior at XYZ’ where XYZ is whatever is socially valued. In a perfect world a person could just show up with those traits and be accepted. Being seen as asexual or a person with virtually no dating experience who is just a regular person with failings and imperfections like everyone else would be nice.
But yeah, I can’t think of any real role models or major media figures who are contemporary. Maybe Sheldon Cooper. But he isn’t cool and is very nerdy/technical. Plus they wrote a relationship in for him. Ok, not Sheldon Cooper.
I know you’ve already addressed this comment monstro****, but I just have to say as someone who really enjoys your posts, I don’t understand why anyone would get the impression that you don’t take ownership of your problems. I feel the exact opposite- the impression that I’ve gotten is that you’re very self aware and that is what has helped you become comfortable with yourself. My apologies if I’m in the wrong- this statement just seemed way out of left field to me.
Anyway, I don’t have anything very useful to say except I think someone who is frustrated in this way might feel better in an urban environment where people are focused on careers, not settling down. I know it’s far easier said than done, but it must be so difficult to have these feelings and be living in a small town where everyone is marrying their high school sweetheart and starting a family.
I feel that in New York City there are plenty of successful single people of all ages who have found fulfillment in other areas of their lives. I honestly only have one friend in a relationship and her high school boyfriend moved out to New York to be with her. I have other friends who rarely date though and that makes me feel better about rarely dating myself. I don’t think I’m repulsive or anything- and yes, my friends and me don’t entirely fit the criteria for this as none of us are virgins and have been in relationships at one point in our lives- but none of us want to settle for some random guy. I’d rather focus my attentions on my real friendships. I hope one day to find a guy to date as well as have a real friendship with (I have platonic male friends, I’m just not dating them), but it’s just so tiresome sometimes when you’re trying to figure out if you’ll click or not.
And there are positive role models that I know of in real life for women who have never settled down. The woman I cat sit for is perfectly content being single, living with her cat and developing her own business and she also focuses a lot on her spirituality. She has plenty of friends, just none of them romantic. For all I know I know lots of women like her- I’ve just never gotten close enough to realize that they’re single and happy being single.
Hmm, I guess I don’t see it as an internal/external thing, but rather more as public and private. The public version is things like this movie poster for We’re the Millers. The private would be things that are personally directed, from people who know you, like a parent expressing a desire for grandchildren.
The odd thing is (at least it seems odd to me) I’ve never had any of the latter. That’s frustrating in its own way. Seems the rest of the world has completely given up on seeing me in any sort of romantic context (if they ever did in the first place).
Sounds about right to me. Shame we can’t just be satisfied with second place.
