I’ve seen people go into fits of rage for no readily apparent reason whatsoever. Should I assume that they were secretly drug addicted, or that they were under unusual stress, or that they were just assholes?
I’ve personally observed a couple of BMW owners doing some really weird things on the road. Does that constitute proof that BMW ownership causes bad driving?
That’s some shithouse logic, Desmos. The people I’ve seen go into fits of rage were admittedly doing so in direct relation to not being stoned. The people you cite going into fits of rage for no readily apparent reason were doing it for, well, no readily apparent reason. Why should you assume another motive unless you had reason to do so?
And your BMW owners are completely irrelevant because I didn’t say anything about pot causes all of its users to go into fits of rage.
Once upon a time, I was very fond of spouting “treatment, not incarceration”. Then I had an opportunity to put my money where my mouth was and landed a job at a drug rehab clinic.
I’m still very pro-treatment for drug abuse. But I’m a little wiser now.
No, not everyone who uses drugs is an “idiot”, although frequently when smart people do drugs they do incredibly fucking stupid shit.
Why do people do drugs? Well, lots of reasons could be found, but I think most of them distill down to one thing:
They’re in pain.
Not physical pain. See, physical pain is something our society recognizes. If you break your leg and bone shards are sticking out of your skin no one doubts you are feeling bad. There will be some focus on fixing the problem, and you’ll get a lot of attention, and so forth.
If you’re in MENTAL pain, however, the situation is much, much different. Can’t point to a broken emotion. I saw literally thousands of addicts in my four years at the clinic, using a wide variety of substances. The common thread seemed to be emotional pain. Sexual abuse, despair, depresssion, being so unpopular you have NO friends…
Why do people use drugs? Here’s the dirty secret: People use drugs because they work. For a little while. For a time. They take the pain away, at least some of the pain, during the high.
Then there comes a day when the drugs don’t work anymore - your job, your family, your home is gone. You’ve “hit bottom”. And yes, it does prompt some people to turn their lives around. But a lot of others just take more drugs, to take that pain away. They learn to love the drugs because the drugs make them feel better, if only for a little while.
The ONLY people I’ve seen get off drugs and stay off drugs for any length of time (and yes, some do achieve this) are those who find another way to ease the pain. Sometimes it’s religion. Sometimes it’s the group support of a 12-step program. Hell, I twice saw a hardened, decades-long heroin addicts walk into the door of the clinic and say “don’t put me on methadone - I’m done with drugs, do me cold turkey and help me stay off”. And seen it work. Know what both of those guys said when we explained that cold turkey usually don’t work and more people have better success with metadone? I swear to god, both of them said “I’m done with drugs because they aren’t doing the job no more - they don’t work for me no more. I’m gonna try something different”.
Part of the reason people do drugs - I’m talking addiction here, not casual use, not social drinking - is because our society has no good remedy for mental pain. Folks are told “well, I wasn’t popular in high school either” or “suck it up, life is tough” but it doesn’t address the fact that some folks are in mental agony. We don’t tell diabetics to “get a better attitude” about sugar, we recognize that, for whatever reason, their bodies can’t handle sugar like most people’s. Likewise, it doesn’t matter if person A can handle horrific disasters, person B just might not have the ability to cope to the same extent. Person C might not have the coping ability to handle what we consider the normal stress of life. We can berate them for being weak, or we can try to help them cope better - which choice do you think is more likely to wind up with drug addiction?
Yes, the young man who killed himself on webcam was a troubled soul. Perhaps brilliant, smart, funny, generous - but also obviously in some sort of inner pain. Was it truly suicide, or an attempt to end the pain? Mental agony can be every bit as horrible as physical suffering. We don’t wonder at someone with terminal bone cancer screaming in agony and begging to die just so the pain would end – why is there no understanding that someone genuinely suicidal is in similar pain, even if we can’t point to a disease? That doesn’t mean we should encourage suicide, just recognize that yes, really, the person is hurting so bad that death is starting to look real attractive. It is REAL pain, not imaginary. We wouldn’t dream of abandoning someone with multiple broken bones, or cancer, or anything else like that, or not even trying to ease their suffering - we need to treat mental distress the same way. We don’t stigmatize people with physical illness, we shouldn’t do that to mental illness, either. Because it IS real paiin. And it should be treated.
Based on my personal experience, I think the problem with drug use is that sooner or later you begin to live a life based on your altered mood. Your approach to life, attitude, and personality are all based on these various substances. Drugs feel good. Reality is not always exciting. It can be mundane and problematic. If you continue to smoke dope you stop developing the capacity to live life on life’s terms. Eventually this begins to change who you are in a profound way. The drug(s) become more powerful than the self. The self gets kicked to the curb along with choice, responsibility, self-reliance, and then growth stops. The damage done can be difficult to fix.
Denial is so sick and so powerful. The grip of denial and this twisted perception of how things are can’t be recognized. The longer the drug self gets fed the harder it is to find the real person. And then… eventually, without exception…rock bottom.
Look, Cisco, you claimed that pot is addictive based on a couple of personal observations. That isn’t proof, just like my BMW statement isn’t proof.
Back it up, or shut up.
Hear, Hear, Broomstick
first things first… i hate cypress hill. if you had said ‘you been listening too much roots and culture?’ or something i might have conceded a point there… but cypress hill? please 
secondly: when i said ‘cannabis can be mildly psychologically addictive’, i wasnt saying that cannabis cant be addictive! for some people, effects that would be ‘mild’ to most can have severe consequences for them, this can easily include becoming psychologically dependant to some degree. it all depends how you view that word ‘mild’, i would say that crack cocaine is strongly psychologically addictive, so is alcohol - compared to these i think ganja is only ‘mildly’ addictive. like you, i have seen people suffer mental health problems exaberated (or even caused) by smoking cannabis, but they are in the minority. it is true that there is some evidence that cannabis smokers tend to have a higher level of diagnosed mental health problems than non-smokers, but these statistics dont reflect the possibilty that some mentally ill people use cannabis as self-medication (i have seen many who do just that in my line of work).
about the asprin comparison - 1) it is a fact that people die from (anaphylactic? not sure of the spelling) shock as a direct result of taking asprin.
2) i have never heard of anyone dying as a direct result of smoking a single joint, i cant provide evidence but i would be very surprised if cannabis can have that kind of physically toxic effect on anyones system.
as for the cannabis vs cigarettes argument, i dont think there is much doubt as to which is more harmful… but you are completly right that people could die from cancer as a result of smoking too much weed. i apologise, i should have said that relatively speaking cannabis is a very benign drug - particularly when compared to alcohol etc as this was the main point of my argument.
desmo imo research into the effects on cannabis is at too early a stage to be able to cite conclusive evidence one way or the other. my opinions come from personal experience and from working with heavy drug users on a day to day basis, i should have made that clear in my last post.
ABC News - Marijuana is Addictive
Brown University - “For a small percentage of people who use it, marijuana can be highly addictive.”
The stuff is addictive. It doesn’t grasp everybody, or even most people like a drug like heroin does, but it is addictive. I’ve seen people make drastic life and personality changes within a week of trying pot for the first time. I’ve known people to drop out of college and the military because of the need to be stoned constantly.
Broomstick - Once again you amaze me with an enlightening and well thought out post.
Mostly agreed, Ki42.
Remember though that one cigarette never killed anybody either. I’ve also heard that a joint contains 10 times as many carcinogens as a cigarette, but no cite as I learned it in Health class when I was younger. Just don’t be too swift to say that cigarettes are worse than pot. I really don’t know which is worse, but I’d like to. Does anyone have a relevant cite?
That’s better, Cisco. Thankyou.
Cisco wrote:
So can sex.
my school classes (im from the UK, so maybe your school has diff statistical sources) mentioned that a joint contained 5 times the carcionogens of a cigarette. this lead to inevitable questions about the research such as:
what brand of cigarette? normal cig or extra long? from which country?
what kind of cannabis is in this average zoot? was it colombian, jamaican, thai, was it cess, colly herb, sensimillia, or was it hash? pakistani? afghan? of what grade, and what kind of plants was it derived from? could it have been a skunk spliff? what kind of skunk? was it homegrown? organic? hydroponic? and so on…
how big was this joint? maybe the government research spliff was similar to the ‘camberwell carrot’ constructed by denny in ‘withnail and i’, or maybe it was the pathetic first attempt at a 1 skin bufta by a government scientist? why were we not told!
i am still not convinced they didnt make up the whole thing!
I believe that part of the point that Desmos was trying to make was along the lines of “which came first, the chicken or the egg”. In other words, your “friends” that had their “fits of rage”…
Granted, you observed, or believe you observed that these fits of rage were in direct correlation with their wanting a joint or whatever. But! How do you know that these people didn’t have the personality type that would cause them to have fits of rage with or without them being pot smokers?
They might have just been jerks that would have used any excuse to “go into fits of rage”, did you know them BEFORE they became pot smokers?
Wow Broomstick!, I am in awe. What a well thought out and true post.
And don’t forget chocolate, coffee, and “One Life to Live” .
(okay, the last one was facetious and the first two are not illegal)
Anything can be addictive to a “small percentage of people”.
In Alaska, up until the mid-80s, pot was legal to own and use (was a misdemeanor to sell or buy, not sure, but I think that nowadays possession is still “just” a misdemeanor). A huge percentage of my peer group (I was pretty active in cheerleading etc, so knew lots more kids than just at my own school) used pot on a regular “recreational” basis.
We have one of the lowest “median ages of sucess” in the country. That is that people attain a higher standard of living and make more per year at an earlier age than the rest of the “lower 48”. The average annual salary for people is higher (or was a few years ago) here per capita than most other states. Cite? A thing called “Anchorage Indicators 2000” a muni publication.
Most people I went to school with, or knew in school from that time period are functioning successful adults. Many people I work with today still smoke pot and are perfectly functioning adults (sans “fits of rage” at least in front of me, lol).
Not sure if this “proves” anything, but wanted it thrown in there in the “pot isn’t the evil weed” collection of posts.
Very true and succinct, Broomstick. Your insight into the addict’s mind is quite keen and spot-on.
Sadly, the amount of pain and suffering necessary to convince an addict/alcoholic to make the fundamental personal changes needed to get well is often also the amount of pain and suffering sufficient to promote suicide. And some people kill themselves rather than have to face the changes they perceive as “impossible to make”.
And a whole lot of addicts start down the path to unhappy destiny with legal drugs like alcohol or legitimate prescriptions.
QtM, MD
Qad
Which is more addicted between nicotine and marijuana? Or are they about the same?
There is a difference between addiction and physical dependency. Nocotine creates a physical dependency, thc does not. Addiction is genetic. For those who have the gene for addiction (or alcoholism-- it’s the same gene) weed can be addictive, just like gambling or porn or sex can be addictive. Some people can smoke pot without becoming addicted just like some people can drink without becoming alcoholic.
As to those who fly into a rage when they can’t get bud, here’s a thought-- maybe they’re just assholes. I’ve seen people fly into a rage because they didn’t get cheese on their cheeseburger. Does that mean that cheese is addictive?
Of COURSE canabis could have that effect. Anaphylactic shock is based on an allergy, which is a malfunction of the immune system triggered by a normally harmless (or near harmless) substance. It not the canabis or the asprin that causes the problem, it’s the affected person’s own mis-firing body.
There are people allergic to canabis. I have never smoked it for the simple reason that second-hand smoke from it from 20 feet away can provoke an asthma attack in me. (Another happy fact I learned while trying to help drug addicts) You can’t inhale when you can’t breathe. It is certainly conceivable that if I were to eat a “magic brownie” containing canabis it could, indeed, provoke a life-threatening reaction. Personally, I feel no need to test that hypothesis.
That aside - since, as a general rule, inhaling smoke isn’t very healthy it’s probably reasonable to assume some side effects from long-term pot smoking. Maybe it isn’t any worse from breathing L.A. smog. Maybe it’s just as bad a nicotine. That we don’t know.
But comparing the two are apples and oranges. Unless you grow your own you don’t know what else is in your toke. THAT could be horrifically harmful. Another war-story from the clinic days were the two ladies sharing a joint in the smoking lounge one day. What they didn’t know was that the shit had rat poison in it. Both of them wound up hemoraghing from every bodily orifice. (They did survive - mostly because our nursing staff was ready for anything, never hesistated to call and ambulance, and I guess the dose wan’t quite lethal when split between two people) I guess the moral is don’t jack you’re dealer around, he has ways of getting revenge.
(What a mess. And, of course, blood puddles are hazmat these days. I swear, we kept that “remidiation” company in business all by ourselves, even with the discount they gave us for being a non-profit.)
But all that’s getting off the track. My personal opinion? I think PURE canabis is probably no more or less harmful than alcohol or nicotine. Yes, I do have a problem with it personally but it’s for a purely medical reason - it causes me real physical distress. I have the same problem with tomatoes (to which I am also very allergic) but I don’t have a problem with responsible tomato consumption. Don’t toke and drive, OK? But I think the current MY GOD MARIJUANA IS THE DEVIL’S WEED!!! attitude is over the top. Smoking illegal drugs is DUMB, but that’s for the above reason I gave - you don’t usually know what’s in it. Don’t put anything in your body you haven’t identified.
Drug users aren’t the problem…drug ABUSERS are the problem. Using does not equal abusing. I’m not going to take the time to find a link, but common sense should tell you that most users (alcohol included) never get arrested or die of an overdose. Of course, most people never go beyond MJ or LSD. The morons who get hooked on crack, heroin or crystal meth make up a small fraction of drug users. If these morons didn’t die from using these substances, they’d probably die from sniffing gas fumes or something…maybe they would just drink themselves to death.
IMO people who won’t even smoke a joint a couple times per year are boring. Painfully boring. I’ll never forget the first time my wife and I got baked and screwed like monkeys on X.