People who do drugs are idiots!!

That’s really the reason I left the clinic and the field. I had enough death and catastrophe. It was really starting to affect me outside of work - my relationship with my own family, my friends, my husband… I feel fortunate that I had the insight to quit when I did, rather than yielding to the pressures I felt to keep a “good” job with benefits and a high salary (of course we were paid well - you can’t get people to do these jobs for free, usually. Hell, we had a hard time getting people to do them for pay. About 1/3 of our hires didn’t last more than a day or two.)

Among other things, one of my duties was filling out the paperwork on the desceased. This is not fun. It’s not fun even when you don’t know the people, but when you do… it’s really not fun. I stopped caring. That was very very bad.

I realize you asked QtM that, but I’ll answer anyway and let’s see if we both agree or not.

I say nictotine is more addictive than canabis.

For that matter, I say nicotine is at least as addictive as heroin, based on how hard it was for people to shake the habit. We had a lot of ex-opiate abusers puffing away in the smoking lounge going “Man” puff puff "I gave up the smack " puff puff “and the pills but I just can’t” puff puff “get rid of the cigarettes!” Sometimes it worked the other way around. That, and my mother, who had taken a lot of painkillers over the years for various medical problems but has never showed any sign of addition to them, yet 5 heart attacks, two bypass surgeries, and emphysema have not convinced her to stop smoking. THAT"s addiction for you right there. What she coughs up in the morning looks like road tar, but she keeps sucking on the coffin nails.

Diogenes, I can agree with the last sentence, but nothing proceeding.

First of all, there isn’t a single gene for addiction. It’s not that straight forward. It’s most likely a combination of genes and environment.

Back to diabetes (apologies to diabetics, but it’s one of my favored analogies). SOME people will be diabetics no matter what you do, but they’re the minority. A lot more people could become diabetics in the right environment, but they aren’t doomed to it. For example, we know the Pima tribe has an unusual suspectability to both obesity and diabetes. I think the US population of Pima’s is running almost 50% diabetic right now. BUT - the Pimas in Mexico do not have an abnormal elevation of diabetes. They’re the same damn family - same genes. It’s the environment that’s triggering the problem. Other folks are so resistant to diabetes it is almost fair to say they’re immune to it (barring traumatic damage to the pancreas).

So… most people have some suspectibility to addiction. But most people also have a healthy enough environment that this tendency is never triggered. Maybe they’ll have a drinking problem for a year or two, or smoke too much pot for awhile, but if their life improves they’ll ditch the stuff and have no problems staying “clean”. Lots of others will never have this problem.

Other folks… well… for some reason additcion is more likely in them, but they aren’t doomed to it. Certainly, some of the environments our clientle came from were horrific. Truly truly awful stuff. But it was damn rare for an ENTIRE family to be in treatment all at once. Sure, multiple relatives - but most of them time there were a significant number of sisters, brothers, counsins, what have you with similar genes and similar environment who managed to stay away from the stuff. Certainly, not all the kids of our patients grew up to be addicts themselves. Nothing unsual for the adult offspring of a junkie with a 30 year addiction history to be drug free themselves. Nothing unusual if they were junkies, too - you just can’t predict which way the kid will go at birth.

(One of the most pernicious myths I’ve heard multiple times is that a baby born “addicted” to heroin is doomed to grow up to be an addict. That is NOT true. You simply can’t predict this. And, to be accurate, NO baby is born an addict. They might have a physical dependency on opiates, but that is NOT the same as addiction)

Other times… man, I’ve known people who had a tremendously unimaginable hell growing up and they’ve never touched drugs.

So the only conclusion I can come to is that it’s a very complex interplay between heredity and environment.

Strictly speaking, addiction is ALWAYS in the head. It’s the mental rut that’s the biggest obstacles. You can get ANYONE off drugs by locking them into a padded cell for a week. The problem is keeping them off once they’re back in the real world. Which is why I laugh whenever I hear about a celebrity going into detox for a month “to get off drugs once and for all”. I’m sure Morton Downey, Jr. can quit drugs anytime - but can he make it stick for good? THAT’s the real test.

Drugs don’t so much put ideas or emotions into your head that you wouldn’t otherwise have as they strip your inhibitions away. Like Clint and his wife “screwing like monkeys” when they were high. Released inhibitions. If you’re horny, you screw “like a monkey”. If you’re angry, you fly into a rage. If you’re sad, you sob hysterically. No brakes, just wildly careening reactions.

As for us non-drug users being boring… well, Clint, maybe I am. But I’ll stick with my boring flying (including that stunt flying course I’m taking this summer) thank you very much. It certainly isn’t any more expensive. And I know a lot of boring pilots still healthy in their 70’s and 80’s and enjoying life. Not so sure about illegal drug users - I’ve known a lot of those, several thousand, and while a couple reached retirement age damn few made it past 40. Perhaps moderation is the best course, overall.

You’re right that most people never acquire a life-threatening addiction. You’re also correct that a lot of these folks would find some other way to get high or even kill themselves. It WAS a constant problem in the rehab business. Get the person off heroin they start drinking, get them off alcohol they try crack, get them off crack they discover marijuana, get them off marijuana they discover LSD or glue sniffing or the joys of drinking kerosene. Sad, very sad. And why we’re NEVER going to “win the war on drugs” in the sense of truly eliminating the problem.

However - and I can’t emphasize this enough - drugs addicts are generally NOT “stupid”, “idiots”, or "morons". In fact, high intelligence is a RISK FACTOR for addiction. Yes, smart people really are slightly more prone to drug addiction than stupid people. Doesn’t mean there aren’t mentally retarded addicts, just that there are a lot more addicted Mensa members.

See, that’s one of the sad things about addiction. It makes geniuses act like morons. What a waste. What a sad, tragic waste.

But don’t say to yourself - “only stupid people get addicted, and I’m smarter than average, so I won’t get addicted”. It’s just not true. If you believe that, you’re only fooling yourself.

nicotine is far, far more physically addictive than marijuana. I am certain it is more psychologically addicting for the average individual too.

QtM

And Brookstick addresses Clint’s comments far better and with more civility than I could.

QtM, MD

Au Contraire, Clint. According to this graph from this government website, it appears that a full 46% of drug users take in drugs other than marijuana. I would hardly call that a minority.

Imagine that…a government graph that “proves” marijuana is worse than people realize!

Yeah, right…and the DEA would have you believe that they’re winning the War on Drugs.

Marijuana is not the most significant “gateway drug” IMO. Alcohol is.

I shouldn’t have called those addicts “morons”, etc., but it does take quite a lack of willpower (or an abundance of shortsightedness) to get hooked on dangerous narcotics.

A) I’m not going to trust anything the goverment has to say about the harmfulness of any drug. These are the same people who are telling us that anyone who smoked a joint is responsible for the WTC attack. They’ve got zero credibility on this issue.

B) Sure, most people who do heroin aren’t going to turn their noses up at a joint. But most people who smoke pot are never going to try heroin. And yes, 46% is indeed a minority. Again, that’s assuming those numbers aren’t just made up out of whole cloth.

Holy God, that has nothing to do with what I was saying. My point is, and read this carefully, that your statement about non-pot drug users being a minority is wrong, as illustrated by the graph. Fill me in on how you got that it “proves” marijuana is worse than people realize by showing the percentage of pot to non-pot drug users.

If you feel like buying a clue, you might find out that the site is NOT the DEA, but the SAMHSA, or Substance Abuse and Mental Health Serives Administration, which, believe it or not, is a government organization that is set up to help(!) drug addicts. Please let me know why you think they would doctor their charts,and what proof you have. Calling them part of the War On Drugs is like calling the Red Cross part of the War On Terror.

Sorry, I thought you were trying to prove that most pot users go on to use harder drugs. The old “gateway drug” myth.

And I’ve never heard of SAMHSA before, maybe they’re on the level, maybe not. But any drug-related organization that receives federal funding is automatically suspect in my eyes, because the federal government has such a long history of lying about the dangers of drug use.

Jimminy Cricket, people! how are we defining “drug” here? “Use”? “Abuse”?

God forbid they ever outlaw caffeine - I am hooked on it, I do enjoy it, and have no intentions of giving it up any time soon. Yes, I do experience withdrawal symptoms when deprived of it for a significant length of time. But it doesn’t interfere with my ability to make a living, pay my bills, nurture interpersonal relationships, drive me to commit crimes, or any other nasty things. Could I give it up? I like to think so. But it would be hard - I’ve been drinking the stuff for over a quarter century.

The difference between “recreational use” and “abuse” is relative, and dependent on how the drug affects your ability to function in society. The mere fact marijuana is illegal makes it more of a problem than caffeine or alcohol. Society’s disapproval of nicotine is making a smoking addiction damn inconvenient these days, to the point that it DOES affect peoples’ lives in ways it didn’t 30 years ago.

I used to drink alcohol on a fairly regular basis - 4 out of 7 days a week most of the time. Then I took up a new hobby that wasn’t very compatible with alcohol. Right then and there I dropped the booze - now I have 1 or 3 drinks a year. I’m not a prude about it, but something more important came along so I gave it up without a blink. Plenty of folks used to make comments to me that I was a “borderline” alcoholic - but if I had been, I wouldn’t have been able to give up the booze without blinking.

So… if you use pot (or mushrooms, or LSD, or whatever) and it doesn’t interfere with your ability to work, you don’t drive fucked up, you don’t operate heavy machinery fucked up, your bills are paid, your family is fed, and you are otherwise a together human being I don’t think there’s an issue there. Except, of course, you’re breaking the law, which CAN screw up your life. But aside from that “detail”, it’s not messing your life up. Alcohol is perfectly legal (as pointed out) but even so you can still be horribly addicted and hit all of the danger points mentioned above.

Now, getting back to the long-lost OP - yes, the man-boy had a real problem with drugs. Probably also with depression, too. He was NOT a recreational user, and whether he ever even tried pot, or tobacco, or alcohol, or heroin is irrelevant. He killed himself with pills, after a history of geting high and having some severe problems (I’m not clear if that was caused by drugs, mental illness, or a combination). And yes, the fucktards who watched were assholes.

Me, I’d call 911, and I’d call the ISP the kid is transmitting from - maybe THEY have his address and would be willing to release to the police. There was a cause in Europe where someone on line late at night became seriously, life-threateningly ill and someone on line with them in the US was able to get them help in time to save their life. So it’s possible. But if anyone tried that, it wouldn’t show up on the chatlog, now would it? I like to believe that the witnesses at least tried, but we have no way of knowing that, either way.

i completely agree with this sentiment, but i dont think it generally applies to cannabis consumption, its far more an issue with synthetic / processed drugs. its incredibly fucked up that someone would put rat poison in someones joint, thats seriously evil shit. but the reality is that most people who have smoked cannabis can identify what is real and what isn’t very easily, and therefore the risk of being sold something harmful is extremely low (at least if you are buying plant matter rather than solidified hash).

i often hear stories about people dying or suffering all kinds of illnesses through consuming impure drugs, particularly from heroin users. apart from the toxicity of whatever they have just injected or smoked, any large increase in the purity of the drug from what they are used to can cause them to overdose - unfortunatly addicts obviously have less resolve about what they will put into their body than most.

[hijack]in my view, drugs are here, they arent going away, making them illegal didnt (doesnt) work, locking up drug users and drug dealers doesnt work, bombing the fields where drugs are grown doesnt work. im sure ill get a lot of flak for this but if all drugs were legalised, there would be far less drug related deaths, there would be less crime, and money set aside for the apparent purpose of ‘fighting the drugs’ could be spent somewhere useful.[/hijack]

just my 2 pence.

Alot of you have brought up alot of good points, and I really am torn on the issue. I wont call someone a moron for doing drugs. I eat refined sugar and smoke cigarettes and eat red meat and prefer videogames to aerobics so it’s not like I can pull the “Why would you do that to your body?!” routine.

However, I would like to address a few things I’ve seen here. The first being that I see alot of mention of Brandon being suicidal. This was not the case. Brandon was a fun kid with a bright future whose biggest flaw was knowing how brilliant he was and assuming he always knew what he was doing. Most of the drugs he ingested were done AFTER the initial drugs kicked in. If he were stone sober he would never take 320mg methadone… let alone the pharmacopia of other things he chose to take along with it. But he was a heavy drug binger… and he’d taken more than most people would get away with and slept it off. And he was cocky and he had something to prove.

I hate to see people crack down on recreational potsmokers, assuming that they’re in anywhere near this much danger. I’ve smoked out a couple times a year for quite a few years and I’ve never wanted to do anything heavier. Hell, I was given a prescription for Vicoden last week after getting some dental work done and the bottle is still lying there, unopen. It didn’t hurt bad enough to take something that strong. But of course, there will always be people who don’t think the way that I do.

When I met Brandon he didn’t use drugs. He may have smoked out a couple of times, but he wasn’t what I would consider an avid drug user. I don’t know who introduced him to 'shrooms because we fell away due to distance and conflicting schedules and when we got back in touch, he was already into them. From what I can tell (after reading through many, many threads on the shroomery website and having talked to Brandon about his drug use on several occasions) people will make suggestions like “Hey man, some benzodiazepines or a klonopin really boosts your shroom trip. Try this many of x pills and eat x caps, it’s really a blast.” And I’m sure he started it this way… and then he realized, after awhile, what a dumbass he was being. He got tired of passing out for 30 hours and waking up feeling like shit. He got tired of feeling like he was going to die… and he met a girl and got a job and got a computer degree and didn’t need it anymore. Unfortunately, it was in him… He had the knowledge that he could fall back on drug use when things got bad and that he’d just feel like shit for awhile and then puke his way back to reality.

I don’t know what to think about the people he was talking to. He was fairly close to them… because the rest of us couldn’t connect with him when he was on his drug kicks. We didn’t want to discuss the different strains of Psilocybe Cubensis mushrooms and the cultivation thereof. It wasn’t our gig and he was one of those types of people that REALLY fall into his hobbies. Because of this we kind of kept him at arms length, figuring he’d snap out of it… just like he always did.

I know now that he gravitated towards these shroomery kids (from the irc channel) because they “understood” him and weren’t judgemental of his drug binging and experimentation. It kills me that he must’ve thought we abandoned him. when all we wanted was to make sure he was okay.

Either way, I don’t want Brandon to be an anti-drug commercial… As I’ve stated before, Brandon is a person… not a cause. He’s someone with friends and family that wasn’t a moron by any means, but who could’ve used better guidance and what makes me the angriest is that those kids in that chat room were given enough information (Brandon mentions, once he realizes how much stuff he’s taken, that if he looks dead, to call the authorities and give them the addy on his domain registration… tell them to look for his car… and he gave the plate # and the make/model/yr/color…) and they didn’t. They let him die. I don’t care HOW big of a mistake he made, real friends don’t let you die. Real friends call the cops, get you busted for drugs, get you thrown out by your parents for your drug use, and they save your life.

Doing drugs isn’t like jumping off a bridge, unless it’s a very low one. Get off your high horse. Drugs are fun. Some are highly addictive and thus “stupid” to do, e.g. nicotine & crack. Others aren’t. BTW, aspirin does kill people.

People have different preferences for types of “highs” and magnitude of risk. That doesn’t make them stupid. That makes them different from you. Hardly a damnable offense.

LOL. Like I’d be concerned about stereotyping potheads?? I don’t think so, pal. The term “pothead” implies more than merely casual use, we’re talking about people who use weed pretty much every day. I’m not really concerned whether those people think I’m unfairly stereotyping them, gimme a break. Every person I ever knew who could be described as a “pothead” was lazy, unmotivated, and undependable. I may have liked some of these people, and they were fine friends as far as it goes, but that’s the way they were. Whether the pot makes them that way, or whether that sort of person just naturally gravitates to pot, it’s still a correlation in behaviour.

Pot may be fun once and awhile, and I don’t think it’s necessarily destructive like crack cocaine is, but it’s not a great lifestyle, and being a habitual user of it isn’t a good thing. Don’t kid yourself, if you’re a regular everyday user, it’s not just recreation anymore. It’s your lifestyle, and it affects you. I think that’s a pretty reasonable position to hold.

After many long arguments on the subject, and considering the likelihood that nobody is even going to read this, I’m not going to bother formulating a point-by-point response.

However, since this is the pit, I will say the following:

SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU IGNORANT, ARROGANT, SELF-RIGHTEOUS FUCK(s)*

that will be all

*- in the likely case that people have actually agreed with this aggravating horseshit OP

ok i have to say one more thing…

I recently attended an event at which anne druyan (carl sagan’s widow) spoke. In a question session that followed, somebody asked about carl sagan’s well-known drug use and she recounted numerous occassions when they would get high together and engage in various activities, and left us with the impression (not one that is ever disputed) that he was quite the “pot head”… Is there anyone who could actually claim that Carl Sagan, world-renowned scientist and author was lazy, unmotivated, or undependable?

Yes i know it’s just one example, “an exception to the rule”… If I really cared I could provide you with an almost inexaustable list of other such revered citizens who could also have been described as “pot heads”, sagan just came to mind since i was recently reminded of it. Even if he was an exception, your statement with the word “every” is no longer valid.

Malkavia, I know you don’t want to think badly of your friend. However, it’s very clear he had some problems.

A lot of people (maybe you’re one, maybe you’re not) seem to think that suicidal people are obviously “down”, unhappy, and miserable. They aren’t. The can present a cheerful, optimistic, happy front. “Suicidal” doesn’t necessarially mean sitting in a corner sobbing and sawing at the wrists.

You could have said much the same thing about my elder sister - “she was fun and had a great future”. A lot of people did say just that. At her funeral. After she killed herself.

As I said before, drugs don’t give you ideas, they just make you more likely to express the ones you already have. Folks get drunk out of their minds, or smoke a few joints, or otherwise get high, but that doesn’t prompt them to suddenly empty a medicine chest into their mouths.

If your friend was a “heavy drug binger” he was an addict. If he could “take more than most people and get away with it” then his body had built up resistance to drugs - another sign he is not only a user, but a very frequent one at that.

The normal LD[sub]50[/sub] of methadone is 70 mg. If your friend was consuming anything like that on a regular basis he was an opiate addict. If he was an experienced drug user who hadn’t built up a physical dependency, he probably still had some idea of how much could cause an OD or kill. Taking 320 mg of methadone alone is so self-destructive I don’t know what else to call it than “suicidal”. Yet you tell me he took more than that? Malkavia, he may have been a wonderful, smart, fantastic guy, but that’s still a sign of depression and, if not delibrate suicide, certainly extremely self-destructive behavior. That’s way beyond casual, recreational drug use.

Hon, if he “smoked out” then he used drugs. If YOU “smoked out” then YOU used drugs. As I mentioned in an earlier post - I’ve got a weakness for caffeine and I have a glass of wine or other alcoholic drink a couple times a year. I use drugs. The real question is - is your drug use a problem? Yours doesn’t seem to be. Brandon’s drug use killed him. THAT’s a problem.

Look, I’m really glad his life cleaned up for awhile and I wish things had worked out for him, really I do. But what you’re describing is someone with a problem. Sounds like he turned things around for awhile, but it’s obvious to me that there wasn’t a cure here, just a remission.

Did he try to keep in contact with you… or did he abandon you as well? Did he choose the drugs and the druggies over you?

Don’t beat yourself up with feelings like “If we had only known just how bad…” and “If only we could have helped…” You did what you thought best at the time. Maybe it was right, maybe it wasn’t, but you can’t know the future at the time you act.

How very, very true.

As I said, don’t guilt yourself. Brandon choose to associate himself with drugs and false friends. He’s an adult. Being an adult means you make choices, and being human, some of them are going to be wrong. Unquestionably, if Brandon had been with you or your crowd he would have gotten medical help. He wasn’t. That wasn’t your doing, that was his.

I don’t want to diminish your tragedy. It IS a tragedy. But sometimes we have to admit our friends have serious problems. If someone is a reckless driver and gets killed in a car crash we don’t say “Oh, he was only a casual driver”. And saying “Oh, God, I wish Tony had been a better driver and hadn’t done all that stupid stuff” is quite appropriate.

I never knew Brandon, but I wish he hadn’t gotten into the drug culture that he did. I wish he hadn’t felt such a need to take these things. I wish he had really been able to walk away from it. For HIS sake. Because no human being deserves to die like that, on display, alone, and needlessly.

Has everyone had their coffee yet this morning?

Everytime I see another alcoholic or someone smoking a cigarette, I think, “what completely brain-dead fucking idiot.”

Was Carl Sagan really a pothead? Cite? I know I already said that smoking pot isn’t “cool” but somehow that would just raise his cool rating with me if I found out that was true (if it was possible for it to get any higher.)

Generally speaking, the most competent, capable, and together people I’ve known have been pot heads.

So not only are you a judgemental jackass, but may I infer from that remark that you are an ignorant boob as well?