People who don't tip

The BBQ Pit
221

[QUOTE=Martini Enfield]
Sydney and Melbourne are not the only inhabited places in Australia. A common mistake made by Americans, though. All your cites say are that if you’re dining in a 5 star restaurant in Sydney (or possibly Melbourne), then maybe a 10% tip, at the diner’s discretion, and only for excellent service, and even then, it would only be appreciated, not de rigeur.

In other words, for people outside Sydney (and, to a lesser extent, Melbourne), Tipping is not expected or (as a general rule) practiced, and even in those cities
I don’t go into threads insisting everyone in the US owns a gun, for example- I don’t live there, I can’t speak authoritatively about firearm ownership rates there. I’ll thank you to exercise the same courtesy in relation to this particular discussion.
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I accept that it is only “standard” for great service at fine dining in the big cities.

Yes, I - as an educated informed American- likely know more than a random Ausralian poster about gun ownership in the USA. However, if you go on line and get me a cite from an American newspaper, the US DoJ, and 2 US University studies, then by damn, even if you are from Australia or anyplace else- you can beat out any plain American poster saying differently. The beauty thing about the Internet is with a little searching anyone anywhere can be as expert as a native in many things. In fact more so. I know there are plenty of fine restaurants in San Jose- but with a fair bit of Googling someone in Australia can tell me exactly how many, what they serve, their street adresses and their last review. Yes, you- “Down Under” would be more of an expert on restaurants in San Jose than I would be.

And I do not claim to know shit about Tipping in Australia- but I do claim that the dudes who are in Monash University, Bond Univ, who run an Australian travel company, and who work for the actual fucking city of Sydney itself- likely do know what the fuck they are talking about. They are paid to research this stuff. It isn’t me- some random American- who is making these claims- it is your fellow Australians, and those who work in that particular field. It ain’t me you should be arguing with, as I said before- write to those websites I gave you in Australia and tell them their info is incorrect.

This is like some Australian poster tying to say that the funnelweb spider bite is not dangerous, and then when an American posts cites from Australian doctors, biologists* and* poison control sites saying that it is very dangerous- the Australian saying that the American can’t disagree with the Australian as the American has never seen a live Funnelweb spider! :rolleyes:

Facts are facts no matter where you live.

222

[QUOTE=MelCthefirst]
Tipping isn’t part of my culture and I have issues with it in the US where it encourages establishments to pay their workers less, have a lot of cash floating around etc - but I don’t have to deal with this. What I would really like to request is that if you come from a tipping culture, DO NOT assume that all cultures tip. Australia has started to and it is not uncommon now in NZ - this is because tourists have encouraged it. STOP IT.
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Of all the downsides to exporting American culture, I’m pretty sure that tipping is not among the most heinous. If American tourists feel like throwing some extra cash your way, what do you care? And if the natives in any given country start it up, that’s on them.

223

[QUOTE=CynicalGabe]
Of all the downsides to exporting American culture, I’m pretty sure that tipping is not among the most heinous. If American tourists feel like throwing some extra cash your way, what do you care? And if the natives in any given country start it up, that’s on them.
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Well you see, the tourist industry is a big earner for NZ, I think second only to beef and diary production - so an awful lot of people earn their living from tourism.
If you start to get extra money for doing your job, would you ever say ‘no thank you’ - ofcourse not and I probably wouldn’t either. So then the service industry starts to expect it and only provide excellent service if a tip is in the offering, or only give good service to US visitors because they tip. Service industry owners start to pay their staff less etc etc
Respect the culture you are visiting, check out what is the norm and follow that.

224

[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
I’m not the one who expects honest, hardworking individuals to cater to my every whim, and then short-change them.

Or the one making assumptions like:
And yet, I’m the one being “uber-douchy.” :dubious:
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You are one extremely vile bleeding-heart moron. Everyone in your world is a poor, helpless victim and it’s your personal crusade to castigate those who cause the injustice. Spew your venomous vitriol on others. KTHNX.

225

[QUOTE=Fuji]
Hey DudleyGarrett . You still haven’t explained how this statement of yours:

[/QUOTE]

Make a deal with you – you tell me how the differences in OpalCat’s list were relevant to the discussion, based on my retort to you, and we’ll discuss this.

Also, please touch upon what made her list more gray (philosophically).

226

[QUOTE=DrDeth]
And I do not claim to know shit about Tipping in Australia- but I do claim that the dudes who are in Monash University, Bond Univ, who run an Australian travel company, and who work for the actual fucking city of Sydney itself- likely do know what the fuck they are talking about. They are paid to research this stuff. It isn’t me- some random American- who is making these claims- it is your fellow Australians, and those who work in that particular field. It ain’t me you should be arguing with, as I said before- write to those websites I gave you in Australia and tell them their info is incorrect.
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Okay, let’s once again agree that you are, in fact, the master and we don’t know jack.

And let’s also pretend for a minute that ‘fine dining’ in Sydney and Melbourne equates to … oh, everything, and everyone, everywhere in Australia.

Yes, let’s do that.

227

[QUOTE=CynicalGabe]
Of all the downsides to exporting American culture, I’m pretty sure that tipping is not among the most heinous. If American tourists feel like throwing some extra cash your way, what do you care? And if the natives in any given country start it up, that’s on them.
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QUALIFIER: THE FOLLOWING APPLIES ONLY AS AN AUSTRALIAN IN AUSTRALIA:

As to foreign tourists giving money voluntarily - if they want to do that, then who am I to argue? If that’s their accepted way of showing respect and appreciation for a job well done, it would be pretty poor manners to reject it and make them feel bad.

But as for tipping becoming part of our accepted culture … well, I don’t know how to say this in a way that doesn’t sound bad, but **we care **because it’s kind of degrading. It turns a peer into a servant. As a customer, I view ‘tip jars’ as only a small step up from street begging; it makes me feel vaguely unclean.

Please understand that I feel this way only about Australia - where wages are very fair and asking for tips is merely grubbing for extras. It’s nasty. It isn’t at all the same as being paid poorly as a base rate and needing the extra money, and I do appreciate the difference.

Plus, with the way our Industrial Reform situation is going, I worry that if we go down that road it’ll ultimately result in a similar situation to the one you guys find yourselves in. I’d far rather pay more for my meal knowing that the staff are getting well paid, than pay less for the food but be responsible for manually subsidising my waitperson’s living wage. It’s a system that seems to devalue the employees as people - I hate that a system like that exists, and I never want to see it become commonplace in my country.

228

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
Make a deal with you – you tell me how the differences in OpalCat’s list were relevant to the discussion, based on my retort to you, and we’ll discuss this.

Also, please touch upon what made her list more gray (philosophically).
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What is this - a test?

Basically the point that I believe OpalCat was trying to make to you was that there are far more job duties involved in working as a pizza delivery person than simply bringing Pizza A from Point B to Point C. The same point was also made by Vinyl Turnip, and was amplified by me.

The differences are relevant because of both repeated insinuations and explicit statements by you that, in essence, pizza guys are shiftless losers who could be adequately replaced by chimpanzees once auto-pilot systems on consumer vehicles become feasible. You have made your contempt for service workers evident in this thread and at least one other.

It seems that this contempt, rather than any other justification, is why you have no concern for whether or not your server gets a tip.

229

[QUOTE=Bites When Provoked]
QUALIFIER: THE FOLLOWING APPLIES ONLY AS AN AUSTRALIAN IN AUSTRALIA:

As to foreign tourists giving money voluntarily - if they want to do that, then who am I to argue? If that’s their accepted way of showing respect and appreciation for a job well done, it would be pretty poor manners to reject it and make them feel bad.

But as for tipping becoming part of our accepted culture … well, I don’t know how to say this in a way that doesn’t sound bad, but **we care **because it’s kind of degrading. It turns a peer into a servant. As a customer, I view ‘tip jars’ as only a small step up from street begging; it makes me feel vaguely unclean.

Please understand that I feel this way only about Australia - where wages are very fair and asking for tips is merely grubbing for extras. It’s nasty. It isn’t at all the same as being paid poorly as a base rate and needing the extra money, and I do appreciate the difference.

Plus, with the way our Industrial Reform situation is going, I worry that if we go down that road it’ll ultimately result in a similar situation to the one you guys find yourselves in. I’d far rather pay more for my meal knowing that the staff are getting well paid, than pay less for the food but be responsible for manually subsidising my waitperson’s living wage. It’s a system that seems to devalue the employees as people - I hate that a system like that exists, and I never want to see it become commonplace in my country.
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Couldn’t have put it better myself!

230

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
I was pulling in about $40k (relatively) tax-free when I delivered pizzas.

-Joe
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:dubious: Oh really? And how’d you manage the “tax free” thing, exactly?

-Una, who delivered pizza to put herself through Engineering school.

231

[QUOTE=CynicalGabe]
Of all the downsides to exporting American culture, I’m pretty sure that tipping is not among the most heinous. If American tourists feel like throwing some extra cash your way, what do you care? And if the natives in any given country start it up, that’s on them.
[/QUOTE]

How do you get the attention of a waiter in a beach bar in Spain during the summer?

A: You say “excuse me!” Anybody saying “¡camarero!” or “¡disculpe!” will be filed under “not a foreigner, doesn’t tip,” and therefore ignored :stuck_out_tongue:
In Spain a tip is tiny (could be the 5ç mentioned in the OP); it’s a pat on the back, not a source of income. Spanish waiters get monthly wages, like everybody except whores and plumbers.

232

[QUOTE=Fuji]
It’s not likely to happen. But it’s not improbable, either. While everything is going your way, it’s a great job. But if you have a setback, watch out. Do you think your boss or a customer is going to replace your vehicle (or at least pay the deductible, and the lost work time finding a replacement)?
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I would imagine it’s actually one of the more dangerous jobs out there, as well. You’re certainly a lot more likely to be killed in the line of duty delivering pizzas than your are waiting on tables.

-Joe

233

[QUOTE=Una Persson]
:dubious: Oh really? And how’d you manage the “tax free” thing, exactly?

-Una, who delivered pizza to put herself through Engineering school.
[/QUOTE]

Because at Pizza Hut, when logging out of the system, one was expected to put “tips earned”. So, you put in a few dollars to look good, but in fact it was just a tiny fraction of the amount earned. Since I occasionally stayed in and didn’t deliver (and therefore lost money so the manager would cancel a couple of paid orders and give me the cash under the table) every shift, I would actually find myself telling the truth occasionally.

So, really, totally untraceable income. I didn’t say it was legal, just tax free.

Of course, we had one guy who would enter in a good chunk of change for each of his delivery shifts. I think he was trying to launder drug money.

-Joe

234

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
You are one extremely vile bleeding-heart moron. Everyone in your world is a poor, helpless victim and it’s your personal crusade to castigate those who cause the injustice. Spew your venomous vitriol on others. KTHNX.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds as though you are the poor, helpless victim. Sitting there covered in venemous, vitriolic spew.

Whatever makes you happy!

235

[QUOTE=Merijeek]
Because at Pizza Hut, when logging out of the system, one was expected to put “tips earned”. So, you put in a few dollars to look good, but in fact it was just a tiny fraction of the amount earned. Since I occasionally stayed in and didn’t deliver (and therefore lost money so the manager would cancel a couple of paid orders and give me the cash under the table) every shift, I would actually find myself telling the truth occasionally.
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Oh. My store had the same system. The difference was, I chose to be honest about paying taxes and not be a criminal. At my store, I was definitely in the minority.

Since I pay more than your $40,000 a year in Federal taxes alone, tax cheating is a fairly sore subject with me. But I’m not going to moralize at you, since I can’t assess you as a whole person, and for all I know you’re a better person than I am in many other ways. So I’ll let it drop at that.

236

[QUOTE=mhendo]
Right, but this is something quite different from your original claim, which was, if you remember:That sentence implies that tipping, as a general rule, results in better service. If you believe this, then service in countries where tipping occurs should, on the whole, have better service than countries where it doesn’t.
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I agree with this conclusion, I’m not sure about the initial assessment though, that service is equal. I wonder if there’s a study somewhere?

[QUOTE=mhendo]
But then, in your more recent post, you say that tipping is like restaurant insurance, and your example about the crowded bar implies that bad tippers get intentionally bad service.
[/QUOTE]

No, better tippers get priority. As far as bar insurance, a bartender is more likely to put up with an obnoxious drunk customer if he tips well.

[QUOTE=mhendo]
So, you’ve gone from an argument that says tipping ensures better service, to an argument that says tipping is insurance against bad service.
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No, though I should have clarified what I meant by insurance. If I meant it the way you think I meant it it would be called extortion.

237

[QUOTE=Fuji]
Look, I understand you and many people don’t like to tip. Fine. But that is the system we have in place in the USA. As others have pointed out to you, if you order food and don’t tell them that you won’t tip, you are undertaking a petty fraud, as one who accepts the rights of the customer but refuses to acknowledge the concomitant responsibilities.
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As I’ve often said in defense of tipping, it’s an unspoken social contract. Therefore if you don’t tip, fine, say that to your server BEFORE you order. Then you’ll get the service you’re paying for.

238

I used to deliver pizza when I was 17. One night I got no tip from a lady and the next night she had the balls to order another pizza from my establishment. I ate a bunch of the pepperonis off the pizza and then my buddy and I both ashed our cigarettes in it and my buddy spit on it several times as well. When I got to her door and told her “that would be fifteen dollars”, she handed me a twenty and a ten and said sorry I forgot to tip you yesterday! I just said thank you very much and walked back to my truck. I quit that job the second I got back to the shop as I realized I was just not cut out for the service industry. I now work in IT and if you piss me off mailbox management will delete all your mail older than 15 days do to a glitch in the system. Oh how I have grown up :slight_smile:

239

[QUOTE=DudleyGarrett]
I’ve stated it many times already. The entire premise of your post is that tipping is the expectation, and that is the problem. Tipping should be considered extra for a job well done.

I know I’ve written this 18 different fucking ways now.
[/QUOTE]
But tipping is the expectation. It’s a shitty system, but it is the system. If the system were abolished–as I agree it should be–prices for delivered food would rise to cover deliverypeople’s wages. Surely you understand that. So you’re not paying “extra” when you tip, you’re paying pretty much the same as you would under a less stupid system. All you’re doing by not tipping is stiffing the driver his or her wage. That’s an obnoxious thing to do.

240

[QUOTE=Bites When Provoked]
Okay, let’s once again agree that you are, in fact, the master and we don’t know jack.

And let’s also pretend for a minute that ‘fine dining’ in Sydney and Melbourne equates to … oh, everything, and everyone, everywhere in Australia.

Yes, let’s do that.
[/QUOTE]

Hmm, let us look at my words you choose to quote “Originally Posted by DrDeth
And I do not claim to know shit about Tipping in Australia-" **Yeah, that sure osund like I am claiming to be “the Master” ** :rolleyes: :dubious: … "but I do claim that the dudes who are in Monash University, Bond Univ, who run an Australian travel company, and who work for the actual fucking city of Sydney itself- likely do know what the fuck they are talking about. They are paid to research this stuff. It isn’t me- some random American- who is making these claims- it is your fellow Australians, and those who work in that particular field. It ain’t me you should be arguing with, as I said before- write to those websites I gave you in Australia and tell them their info is incorrect.”

And,my original cite did not claim “everything, and everyone, everywhere in Australia” tips or expected tips. It said “10% for fine dining”, and other *Australian *sites have since convinced me this is confined to the Big Cities. So, that exactly what was claimed. No one claimed it was “everything, and everyone, everywhere in Australia.” :rolleyes: