I could have twin lobster dinners with all the fixings every other week for a year, easy.
C’mon, people. Most kiddies are fine. Most parents are hard-working and doing the best they can. Most people who complain about noisy, unruly kids just want some peace and quiet. Most posters in this thread are not sociopaths or demented.
As for the rest, just get over it. 
I completely agree. I worked in a casual dining restaurant (family friendly) for the last 7 years. I worked 5 or 6 days a week, usually 8 to 12 hours a day. I have seen thousands of kids in that restaurant. I can’t even remember the last time we had a child who was just completely screaming, or just being downright obnoxious. Sure, it happens, but I can think of less than 10 occasions where children were actually being disruptive.
What 99% of the children did in the restaurant was ask politely for what they wanted to eat, say thank you when you brought them their drinks, laugh, giggle, or draw me pictures.
Well, you said it yourself, Rubystreak…you are childless, not childfree. If you were childfree, you would be able to hear the screaming. Or something like that.
It seems like there’s gross exaggeration and denial happening on both sides of this issue. I’m not crazy about being around young kids but I certainly don’t *hate *anyone and I’m finding it hard to believe that depsite their claims, **Curlcat **or Starwarsfreak actually do either.That would just be nutty. I think they have extemely low tolerance / patience for kids and all the folks that are running to the childrens’ defense are just kind of making them dig their heels in further and drift into hyperbole. I’m also not buying that so many people never or so rarely encounter children who misbehave. Maybe I shop, eat (live on a different planet) than you do, but I see it quite often. I’m not saying it’s the end of the world, but to deny or minimize its frequency? Not buying it. I also think the larger irritation is *some *parents’ lack of effort to correct the situation than the actual noise itself. (Nobody needs to come in here and say “I never do that”. If you aren’t that kind of parent than this does not apply to you).
The boyfriend and I went to a moderately priced steakhouse and sat next to a table with four adults and two children. The little girl appeared to be around three and the boy was maybe one and a half (sorry, I don’t gauge childrens’ ages well; he was in a highchair and not forming actual words yet). The girl was an angel and the boy shreiked for approx. three minute intervals THROUGH THE WHOLE FUCKING MEAL. While the girl was sitting next to her mother and interacting the boy was being, for the most part, ingnored. During one screaming jag I looked over and saw he was crying because the sugar packet he had been playing with had fallen on the floor but dad and grandpa were too fucking absorbed in their conversation to care. How fucking dare they ruin our meal and the meals of all the people around them? Lest you think I’m an oversensitive child hater, my boyfriend who has a very active five year old boy was even more pissed than I was. Does anyone think we were out of line to be annoyed? I know this thread was started as a response to “child haters” but since it has pretty much strayed from that to what is and is not acceptable public behavior / parenting, I’d be interested in hearing if anyone has a defense for this kind of thing which happens not all the time, but more often than some people seem to want to admit.
If this is what you mean, then this:
does not express it, since you refer to the old statement. (bolding is mine)
You might want to explain why the new statement is even more foolish.
Please believe my sincerity when I tell you, I am not minimizing anything. I really do not encounter screaming, tantrum-throwing kids all that often, and when I do, not for long periods of time. I am not a shut in, I am in the stores and restaurants like everyone else, but honestly, I do not see it more than a few times a year, and usually just in passing, not at great length. I am as astounded as you are, but on the other side. Based on my experience, it seems like people are grossly exaggerating the frequency and duration of their bad experiences. So, obviously, everyone’s MMV, but don’t tell me you’re “not buying it” when I tell you my experiences. Why would I lie? I have no kids, I have no dog in this fight, but people’s claims are running counter to my personal experiences and seem hyperbolic. Mine are running counter to yours, so mine seem minimizing. OK. That doesn’t mean that I’m bullshitting and you’re reciting gospel.
Just to clarify (why am I letting myself be sucked back into the crazy?), are you “defend[ing] children screaming & running amok in stores”? That’s what I said doesn’t exist in this thread–people that defend children screaming & running amok.
If you’re saying it shouldn’t happen, and parents should in general try to prevent it, but if it does happen it’s time for coshoppers to put on their big girl panties and deal, I’m right there with you. If you’re defending the act of running amok in a store as long as the runner is a child, then you’re nearly as crazy as curlcoat over there.
As for how often I see such behavior, I was made aware of it the other day, when I was restraining myself from adopting Teacher Voice at the grocery store. A mom was shopping with her 8-year-old (approximately) daughter, and the daughter was hanging back looking at something or another (maybe a cutesy wine bottle label), and the mom said, “Come on, we need to go,” and the daughter just giggled and held back.
I was on the edge of giving the girl The Look and saying, “Uh, excuse me, but I believe your mom just gave you a direction, and you nee to do it RIGHT NOW.” That voice is really effective with my students; the only reason I didn’t use it was that it was none of my business. The girl was not being disruptive to anyone except the mom’s routine, and using the voice might have embarrassed the mom, making her think she was incapable of solving this problem by herself. Besides, I’m kinda shy.
That incident is by far the worst child behavior I’ve noticed in a store in the last few months.
Sorry, but it’s not an exaggeration. I’m telling you exactly what I saw today; not one child out of a dozen or more was being troublesome, and one was particularly cute. It’s just an anecdote, not any sort of meaningful data, but there it is. What, in your opinion, was “exaggerated”?
I actually can’t remember a single incident where children bothered me in public places.
I don’t enjoy having very specific children (the ones of one my wife’s friend) over since they are selfish and do not behave well to other children. Although, that is more a character related annoyance, they do not make any noise.
In public places? I seriously do not remember a single incident. I just came back from the shopping mall. No incident. No running child. No shouting. We must live on different planets.
Well … what’s the definition of “screaming and running amok”? How long does it last? How loud? What’s the dividing line between “standing right next to parent” and “running amok”?
These things truly are not self-evident … and people will have wildly different tolerances.
<snip>
Fair enough. If we substitute the word “exaggerating” with “minimizing” you have just expressed what I was trying to say but which came out a little, shall we say, douchey. I was just getting frustrated because it seemed some people were implying that the other side is bullshitting and they are reciting gospel.
“Running” implies to me that at some point both feet are off the ground. “Amok” implies that they’re causing damage, interfering with other folks’ movement around the grocery store, or giving other folks legitimate concern for their or their property’s wellbeing. “Screaming” implies either that their voice is loud enough to be heard from, let’s say, 30 feet away, or that it’s raised in a high-pitched squeal/shriek.
A mom is at the store with her three kids. They’re hanging out by the cookies while she shops 20’ away for condiments. The kids are swaggering a little, making jokes about the cookie in a voice too low for me to hear. When the mom says, “Let’s roll,” they mosey on after her. I saw that at the store the other day. No screaming; no running; no amok; no problem.
As long as you’re nitpicking and demanding silly things, you might want to go back and answer my question that you ignored in post #938. When did I say that running around and making noise is the same as not showing respect?
Now, let’s go back to your original statement in post #895:
and then in post #919 you say that you did not choose the right word and to replace “respect” with “suck up to.” So, let’s try that and see how that looks, okay?
Huh? I’ve switched out the words as you’ve directed and it still makes no sense. In your original comment you seemed to insinuate that kids today make people EARN their respect/suck up whereas in the old days that was just given. Do you really think that people (kids OR adults) should make people prove they’re worthy of respect before it is given rather than to operate on the idea that courtesy is given FIRST rather than earned? What exactly are you trying to say about sucking up/courtesy/respect since you chose the wrong word the first time and the second try makes no sense? Please explain.
I think bordelond hit on the truth of it: we all have different thresholds. I am intolerant of loud, shrill noises, but I do teach middle school and my husband is a musician with a recording studio in our home, so maybe I’m more desensitized than I thought. When I do encounter loud children, I notice it, and I don’t like it, like that time on an airplane when an infant screamed for half an hour. That made me homicidal. However, it’s rare enough that it was notable, and awful.
Same planet, just different perceptions of reality.
I’ve heard kids cry and scream in grocery stores, including my own kid. I’ve also have to navigate around clueless adult shoppers who block whole aisles with their cart and body. My patience though is pretty thick to get through life without having a meltdown about how some kid or adult ruined my shopping and/or dining experience. That’s right, adults also can be self-centered, boisterous and loud as well. But to me, is it really worth lamenting about it on a messageboard?
No.
It’s just people being people. But it is pretty irrational to single out just kids; and I don’t just mean parents, either. There are PEOPLE of all types who are noisy, belligerent, and self-centered, and then there are PEOPLE of all types who are not. If you see it that way, you just might be less anxious. If you continue to be anxious, maybe counseling is a better solution than ranting about it here. 20+ pages of “hate” is not changing a thing for anyone here no matter which side of the fence you are on.
Come on, please don’t play dense because you’re not. Or, maybe you are and I’ve given you too much credit when I read your posts.
In the comment I replied to you ended with the oh-so-witty-haw-haw “I imagine curlcoat would say her jacket was too pink and it hurt her eyes.”
Oh man, what a knee slapper. If you really, really think that she would think that then you really don’t have any business arguing for the “pro kids” side of this discussion because you’re making their side look pretty stupid. If you were saying it as comic relief, don’t quit your day job
Oh my … you never said that, and I don’t need to show it since I never said that you said it… What I said was:
This discussion is and was largely on kids making noise, that’s why curlcoat and starwarsfreek42 frequently compare complaints about children making noise with complaints about barking dogs.
It’s about children running around and making noise. As repeatedly pointed out, not just by me, children running amok are NOT excused, never ever did anybody say that in this thread. You might also note:
There always was consensus on running amok - hey, I’ve never seen this amok thing before, but let’s assume that it exists and that some kids actually do it.
Ok, I explain:
In the old days, kids needed to be quiet and obey roles. They needed to obey teachers, although teachers very often were (and still are) wrong in what they are doing. Kids were beaten and slapped even if it was not them who were wrong. Teachers and other “roles” where authorities not to be questioned.
Nowadays its different, and that’s a major achievement, although does not seem to be shared by everybody here. If a kid feels that somebody is not right, if something is not right, then it will not always obey - if its an intelligently raised kid. Not suck up. Teachers and other authorities have less power over kids nowadays.
In the “old days”, kids where told what to do. The whole educational system was different. Show them that its done this way, as opposed to: explain to them why its done this way. If kids don’t understand why they need to behave a certain way, they will not give way. And that is good. That is an evolution.
You might try this reading comprehension thing, because without a little effort this will not work.
You do realize that I wasn’t being literal, right?
And by the way, I don’t care if you found it funny, either.
That is exactly my point. I do not call “running around and crying” “running amok”. Running around and crying is a natural behaviour for kids - with threshold levels on the crying part, of course.
I maintain that kids which are seen and not heard will grow up to be sad adults.
Oh please, your explanations to this point have been so jumbled it’s ridiculous. Trotting out that tired old “reading comprehension” line only makes you look even more obnoxious.
You are doing exactly what curlcoat is doing, but in reverse. A small amount of children are horrifically ill-behaved in public. She is making a huge deal out of a small minority of children, although she does have many good points about some specific examples. Everyone is all too happy to pretend that everything she’s saying is bullshit because she’s taking it wayyyyyyyyy too far.
Now here you are acting as if it is a-okay for children to defy authority figures or adults they disagree with or if they feel the adult/authority figure is “wrong” in their super wise experience. Yes, in the past (and still) a small number of teachers and authority figures were completely wrong in their dealings with children. To say that gives kids a right to go against a teacher (as one example) because they disagree with them is unwise. To a certain extent kids still need to be quiet and obey teachers. Does this mean they have to take abuse or do things that are morally or ethically wrong? No. Absolutely not.
The job of a parent is to protect their child and help them grow up to be someone who can survive in our society. We have too many kids who are being taught to be unique little snowflakes in life and they don’t have to do what they disagree with or that they have the right to disregard what an adult says (in this case, a teacher) because they don’t agree with it.
Life isn’t like that. Pretty much everyone has a boss. If you don’t agree with your boss, you don’t get to tell them that you’ll do it your way instead. It’s one thing if your boss is asking you to steal or do something truly WRONG, it’s something else to have a difference of opinion. The teachers I know feel that are more and more parents teaching their kids that they don’t have to answer to anyone but them (the parents) and this seriously hinders the learning process. It nurtures the “I don’t have to do what you say” mindset that can ultimately get the child in a lot of trouble by putting them in harm’s way or making them someone who has a hard time maintaining professional and personal relationships.
Hardly anyone is asking the kids to be good little Nazis and keep their heads down and their mouths shut, but to get along in the world people need to learn how to treat each other with respect. I personally do not believe that as a person who doesn’t care for kids that I have a right to not be inconvenienced by them. That’s pretty silly IMHO. Still, there are too many people who are trying to behave as if saying a single bad thing about kids makes someone a sad and horrible person. They are just as ridiculous as the people who say they HATE kids.