People who hate (or even just dislike) children

Great Debates
61

[QUOTE=DianaG]
Heh, my dad always used to say “I LOVE kids! A little butter, a little salt…”

I’m not chowder, obviously… but I don’t especially care for children, and yet I have one. It is, of course, *actually * different when it’s your own, no matter how much people hate hearing it. It might not be different *enough * if you’re really not cut out for parenting, but I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t have more tolerance for their own kid than for other peoples’.
[/QUOTE]

I can understand feeling different about your own kid, but what mystifies me is the decision to become a parent when you don’t like kids, i.e. before you have any of your own, how do you know that you’ll love your kids and enjoy being a parent if you don’t actually like kids?

62

[QUOTE=sandra_nz]
I can understand feeling different about your own kid, but what mystifies me is the decision to become a parent when you don’t like kids, i.e. before you have any of your own, how do you know that you’ll love your kids and enjoy being a parent if you don’t actually like kids?
[/QUOTE]
Amen. Ever since I got old enough to say I didn’t want children, I’ve been hearing about how different it is when I get my own. Let me get this straight: you want me to bring an unwanted child into this world on the off chance that I’ll learn to like the thing once it’s here, and if I don’t I just fucked up several lives? You think this is a good idea?

63

[movie quote]
You have a baby! …in a bar.
[/movie quote]

You can call it self centered or self indulgent if you like, but there are a lot of people who prefer to enjoy their adulthood by pursuing careers, hobbies, a social life and other activities. Unfortunately, many people with means choose to continue to do so after they have children.

64

[QUOTE=Priceguy]
Let me get this straight: you want me to bring an unwanted child into this world on the off chance that I’ll learn to like the thing once it’s here, and if I don’t I just fucked up several lives? You think this is a good idea?
[/QUOTE]

If that was directed at me, no, I don’t, nor did I imply that I do.

The fact is that plenty of people don’t especially care for children in general, and still love their own. But if you’re not one of those people (and only you know whether you are or not), I strongly suggest you refrain.

65

[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip]
Since this “debate” appears so far to consist largely of colonic conjecture, I’ll offer some of my own: that if true, this statement (and your apparent bafflement over the existence of screaming or misbehaving children in public places) indicates that you a) actually don’t get out much, b) are oblivious to, or have an uncanny ability to ignore your surroundings, or c) lead something of a charmed life. If it’s (c), then I’m envious.

I suppose that if, during my entire life as a motorist, I only encountered other drivers who were friendly, courteous, highly skilled, and obedient to traffic laws and customs, I would probably be bemused by the many threads filled with complaints about the jackassery of other drivers. I might even be inclined to post something insinuating that others were exaggerating the problem or gaining some perverse thrill from bitching about it. But then how would I look?
[/QUOTE]

Not at all. I get out a lot, thank you very much.

You made a very specific complaint - screaming infants in R-Rated movies - and I responded that, as a matter of fact, infants of any sort (screaming or not) are so rare at such movies that I can’t recall even seeing one, let alone considering them a serious problem.

Which of us is “oblivious” and which of us is hypersensitive?

It is much as if someone was bitching about bad motorists, and their example of what constituted a bad motorist was something highly unusual - say, that they were commonly inconvenienced by motorists leaving the road and driving around in public parks in the city.

No doubt that happens from time to time, but it is an unusual event. Similarly, no doubt some parents bring their infants to an R-Rated movie, but in actual experience I suspect this is pretty unusual - I’ve seen lots of movies, and never as far as I remember have I had an R-rated movie interrupted by a screaming infant. I am not saying that it never happens, but it certainly isn’t a common concern. Teenagers gossiping, people talking on cellphones - these are what one expects to interrupt one’s enjoyment of (say) the cinematic violence of the Coen Brothers’ No Country for Old Men. Not wailings for the bottle.

If I am correct in this, it of course brings up the question as to why you complain so vociferouisly about a problem that, practically speaking, doesn’t generally exist. I refer you to my first post.

66

[QUOTE=sandra_nz]
Genuine question - if you don’t like kids, then why did you decide to have one of your own?
[/QUOTE]

Not much decison about it.

My hormones were rampant, so was she, we had no BC, we went at it like rutting stags and the rest is history

67

[QUOTE=ZipperJJ]
All of us childless-by-choice folks are just uptight because we are constantly being told that we’re wrong, or we’ll change our minds.

The quick and easy answer to this constant nagging is “I FUCKING HATE KIDS AND I NEVER EVER WANT TO BE AROUND THEM, PERIOD!” We don’t really mean it (most of us) - we mean we don’t like this and this and this and this about kids and that’s just the way we are. But it at least gets the child-pushers out of our way and keeps us from having this long, drawn-out conversation where we list all of our dislikes and they poo-poo them.

Of course, once faced with the “I FUCKING HATE KIDS!” statement, they still walk away thinking “oh, they’ll change their mi-inds…” but at least they’ve walked away.
[/QUOTE]

That makes a lot of sense. I’ve never once in my life tried to convince others to have kids (though I have responded to those who ask why I wanted one - which is the other side to that particular coin); I would certainly be annoyed at those who questioned my choice in the matter.

I think though that saying stuff like that repeatedly often has unintended consequences. It is no doubt great for driving off unwanted conversation on the subject, but not everyone is going to know or understand the context.

Of course you may not care, but just for information’s sake, I’ll say that to many people “hating children”, particularly vehemently, isn’t a good sign as to that person’s overall personality, if overheard. It is too strong a reaction. It will have the effect of prejudicing people (particularly parents) against you.

68

[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan]
Yes.
[/QUOTE]

But also ridiculous. There’s not the slightest shred of objective, verifiable evidence that children misbehave more than they did when it was more common to hit them. Certainly from what I can divine from what they tell me, my parents’ generation was just as unruly and misbehaved as mine. That’s an anecdote, but no objective evidence says otherwise; youth crime is on a long term downswing over the last 20 years, at least around here. There’s no evidence kids do worse in school (which you would expect if their behaviour in school was worse.)

Given that adults have been bitching about “kids these days” since the days of Hammurabi, if the complaints were actually true civilization would have collapsed before the rise of the Roman Empire. I am thus disinclined to believe the complaints.

Subjectively, I honestly, sincerely doubt there’s any correlation between physical punishment and behaviour, and have difficultly understanding the perspective of any intelligent adult who thinks otherwise; surely we ALL knew a few juvenile deliquents growing up who were hit by their parents?

69

[QUOTE=Dominic Mulligan]
Exactly. When I started screaming in Church, I was taken outside and given a slap. These days, kids are running up and down the aisles, climbing on to the altar, screaming, banging toys etc. while their slack-jawed parents look on with a vacant grin on their face.
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And we all know that the best way to teach children a loving religion of forgiveness is a good Church beating. :smiley:

70

A lot of the time when you see parents who seem to be ignoring bad behavior of their kids in public, it’s due to the way people feel like they can get in your face and accuse you of child abuse if you give the kid a swat on the butt, which is how they would be handling that behavior if they weren’t in public.

71

[QUOTE=Malthus]
You made a very specific complaint - screaming infants in R-Rated movies - and I responded that, as a matter of fact, infants of any sort (screaming or not) are so rare at such movies that I can’t recall even seeing one, let alone considering them a serious problem.
[/QUOTE]

It was intended to be a single example of how one’s experience can be marred by kids acting up in public (or especially in that case, by the poor judgment of the parents), and not the only phenomenon. And I have experienced it personally, on more than one occasion—if not babies, then young kids crying and fidgeting in a movie that is clearly inappropriate (either too lurid, violent, or just plain boring) for them to attend. Like others, I don’t fault kids for being bored or cranky or testing the boundaries of behavior; that’s what kids do. But I do blame parents who don’t appear to lift a finger to keep them in line nor try to teach them basic rules of decorum.

I don’t know whether it’s worse now than in the “old days,” and frankly I don’t care. In the present (where I happen to live), it seems pretty bad.

72

I gather that you people who go to movies where it’s quiet and there are no screaming children (or teenagers for that matter) do not live in Los Angeles.

73

[QUOTE=Malthus]
And we all know that the best way to teach children a loving religion of forgiveness is a good Church beating. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

The Catholic way :stuck_out_tongue:

74

[QUOTE=kayT]
I gather that you people who go to movies where it’s quiet and there are no screaming children (or teenagers for that matter) do not live in Los Angeles.
[/QUOTE]

Teens - yes. Infants in R-Rated Movies - no.

75

FYI, the person who mentioned using the “hating children” comment explained it was not meant literally, but typically used when all else failed as a means of quelling people pushing the idea of parenthood on the unwilling. But I think you seized on that post to prove your thesis that resentment of badly behaving kids in public is due to “hating children”, instead of the reality of folks resenting bad parenting.

Of course, publicly expressing disdain for lousy parenting will not endear one to said parents either, especially to those who feel that the very act of having children is a public service.
[QUOTE=chowder]
we went at it like rutting stags and the rest is history
[/QUOTE]
When rutting stags go at it, the usual consequence is broken antlers, not babies. :smiley:

76

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
When rutting stags go at it, the usual consequence is broken antlers, not babies. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]
Yes…I was thinking that I would be VERY surprised if rutting stags went at it, and any kind of baby resulted! :wink:

77

In my experience, “kids” and “one’s own kids” really are two completely separate concepts. How one feels about kids in general is not particularly informed by how one feels about one’s own kids, and vice versa. I think a lot of people know this more or less instinctively. It’s why there are people out there (me, for example) who aren’t gaga about kids in general, but who don’t let their gagalessness stand in the way of having their own kids.

78

[QUOTE=Jackmannii]
just for information’s sake, I’ll say that to many people “hating children”, particularly vehemently, isn’t a good sign as to that person’s overall personality, if overheard. It is too strong a reaction. It will have the effect of prejudicing people (particularly parents) against you.
[/quote]
FYI, the person who mentioned using the “hating children” comment explained it was not meant literally, but typically used when all else failed as a means of quelling people pushing the idea of parenthood on the unwilling. But I think you seized on that post to prove your thesis that resentment of badly behaving kids in public is due to “hating children”, instead of the reality of folks resenting bad parenting.

Of course, publicly expressing disdain for lousy parenting will not endear one to said parents either, especially to those who feel that the very act of having children is a public service.When rutting stags go at it, the usual consequence is broken antlers, not babies. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

Honestly, you people :stuck_out_tongue:

You know full well what I meant.

Incidentally, when rutting stags go at it with each other very seldom are there any broken antlers.

Usually one stag realises he’s outclassed and he fucks off somewhat sharpish thinking “I’ll have that bastard next year”

79

[QUOTE=Malthus]
Which of us is “oblivious” and which of us is hypersensitive?

It is much as if someone was bitching about bad motorists, and their example of what constituted a bad motorist was something highly unusual - say, that they were commonly inconvenienced by motorists leaving the road and driving around in public parks in the city.
[/QUOTE]

Having slept on it, that was just what occured to me. Dopers have a general tendency to get bent out of shape over anything that even nudges them out of their comfort zone. They encounter a bad driver and it ruins their entire commute. They can hear their cubicle neighbor’s voice and they can’t concentrate. There’s a child in the restaurant and they can’t enjoy their meal.

And I’ve said before that sitting at a family gathering giving off waves of hostility towards the children who have the nerve to show up will guarantee an unpleasant experience. If you’re determined to be annoyed, you will be.

80

[QUOTE=Princhester]

The part that I find annoying is the apparent righteousness that some people seem to be able to maintain due to ignorance of what children are, and parenting is, like. There probably are perfect children and parents, and absolutely 'orrible ones. But mostly parents and children are about average and applying judgmental labels when you’ve only seen them on one occasion is probably unfair.

2/ Parents ignoring bad behaviour. It’s a crime of which many are accused. There’s several mentions of it above. Sure, it happens. But quite often parents who’ve done their homework know that children attention seek, and one way to force a parent to pay attention is to do something bad. Parents who give their child immediate attention for every minor infraction encourage more infractions. When a child is in attention seeking mode (and as an inexperienced passerby you probably won’t pick up the signs) you have to make a judicious decision in every case as to whether what your little darling is doing is so bad that you have to intervene, or whether you let it go so they are not encouraged to do it again. If your knee is set to hit your chin every time some parent doesn’t leap into action when their brat does something annoying, congratulations, you are helping to socialise that brat into growing up to be an attention seeking asshole.
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If you are ignoring your child the 5% of the time he is misbehaving in my presence, you are not being a good parent. Save your lessens for home. For now, shut your kid up or get him out of the restaurant. I can say that my daughter does not have a 5% because she knows how to behave but more, is well aware that I would not allow it. There has NEVER been a tantrum in public. If I see an attitude coming, she would be immediately removed from others because it is the courteous thing to do. My children were acclimated to restaurants from an early age and they simply do not misbehave. They are/were not perfect but a gentle reminder to "sit properly and don’t bounce the booth ", “Use your inside voice” “where does our napkin go?” was all they ever need(ed.)*

*My daughter is 8 but her brother is an adult now.