Permitted Rave shut down by People in Fatigues with Assault Rifles

[kidchameleon]

@ExTank

Man. Talk about a tough decision. 9 & 10 are both kind of vague, we could probably get by without those.

What? 15 more to go?

This is gonna take a while.

Well, we could blow off the 18th and 21st as a matched set. I’m pretty darn sure he’s against the 16th, though I wonder how he is on the 15th and 19th. But we can’t take power from the youth by ignoring the 26th!

[Captain_Amazing]

@Frankenstein Monster

Here is another freedom index. USA ranks twenty-second here. That’s below Bosnia and Herzegovina. Note also how much higher the real civilized countries in the world are ranking.

And, in addition to Dead Badger’s comments, (and noting that we’re tied with that tyrant police state Belgium), I’ll point out that that’s strictly a measure of press freedom.

Look, can we do better in civil and human rights? Sure. But even if you want to make the argument that the United States has a worse civil and human rights record than Western Europe, which I wouldn’t neccesarily agree with, but at least it’s debatable, that’s different than saying that the United States government is the most oppressive in the world.

[Ravenman]

@cowgirl

Yes, it means that in my experience guys at raves are much less likely than guys at baseball games to be assholes. Or did you mean something else?

If I were camping in a public ground and 3,000 counter-culture rebels decided to make a bunch of racket all night long, I’d call them assholes.

[Frank]

@mswas

That a handful campers who pay the ironic ‘fee’ to camp on “PUBLIC” land have a greater amount of rights per capita than HUNDREDS OF Ravers gathered on PRIVATE Adjoining land.

You got a cite that this was private land, please?

I’m not even going to comment on your “we can do whatever the hell we want” attitude.

[Frankenstein_Monster]

@Dead Badger

So basically, you’ve demonstrated another area in which the USA is remarkably free, and shown that two other countries are surprisingly free. You’re not going very far towards showing oppression, I have to say.

What all this demonstrates to me is how low people’s standards for “freedom” have become.

I’m with mswas much of the way. In my country, or in other countries freer than the USA, (or, I suppose, in freer parts of the USA for that matter) a rave like this would never have been busted. And had it been busted, it would have been a huge national scandal had it been done in such a heavy-handed way. Even many opponents here agree that U.S. drug laws are over the top, well, in freer countries they would never legislate such laws.

Although I don’t think that the USA is all that homogenous. Nor do I think it is really getting worse than before.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Lute Skywatcher

I was only referring to the mass gathering permits, therefore I wasn’t wrong. From what I could find, the county mass gathering permits are also issued by the health department.

Well, I don’t know where you’re getting your information from. In the news stories and in the press release from the Utah County police it says that the MG permit from the county needs commission approval. It’s entirely seperate from the permit required by the health department.

In any case, that MG permit is apparently not the only one needed. You also need an MG permit from the state, which, as I indicated, is for gatherings of more than 500 people.

Lute, don’t take it personally. I wasn’t slamming you. But your facts are wrong, even if you thought they were right. There’s more than one MG permit needed.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@This Year's Model

You got a cite that this was private land, please?

I’m not even going to comment on your “we can do whatever the hell we want” attitude.

TYM, this was private land. It’s written up in all the news stories that the land belongs to the Child’s family. It’s referred to over and over as the Child’s Ranch. The owner is quoted in several of the news stories. The police talking over the infrared video in the news story make mention that some of the participants are now on public land. It’s a big part of the story, and you didn’t even know it.

Thus, with no facts at your disposal, you have been berating mswas and myself. All you’ve done here is show that you haven’t read any of the links, you’ve just been shooting your mouth off, spewing ignorant hate for people who want to do something you don’t think you like. Please, if you don’t know what you’re talking about, shut the hell up.

I don’t mind people who disagree with me, but to be deliberately ignorant of the basic facts of the story and still be as confrontational as you have been is just lame.

[Ravenman]

@Frankenstein Monster

In my country, or in other countries freer than the USA, (or, I suppose, in freer parts of the USA for that matter) a rave like this would never have been busted. And had it been busted, it would have been a huge national scandal had it been done in such a heavy-handed way.

Yawn.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/3812109.stm – “Devon and Cornwall Police are set to be among the first in Britain to use new powers to prevent illegal raves… But under the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003, officers have powers to break up a crowd of 20 or more people in open or indoor areas.” Damn that fascist state of Britain!

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/2/hi/europe/4738371.stm “Tear gas and water cannon were used to break up the party of 5,000 ravers at the weekend CzechTek event, leaving 80 injured, including 50 police officers.” Damn Czechs! Makes the Utah police look like bobbies.

[Dead_Badger]

@Frankenstein Monster

What all this demonstrates to me is how low people’s standards for “freedom” have become.

Really? How does it do that? “Freedom” is a subjective matter, and my pointing out that a difference of three points on one arbitrary measure of “freedom” whose scale goes out past 100 is pretty tiny says absolutely nothing whatsoever about my standards of “freedom”. I am taking issue with the quite ludicrous assertion that the USA is one of the most oppressive states in the world, a statement which is, on its face, fucking absurd. So I’ll thank you not to patronise me.

Even many opponents here agree that U.S. drug laws are over the top, well, in freer countries they would never legislate such laws.

I was one of those arguing that drug laws are over the top, if you’d troubled yourself to notice, although I believe those laws are born of stupidity and paranoia, not a desire to oppress. I, however, am capable of recognising that drug laws comprise only one small facet of “freedom”. By your standards, pretty much only the Netherlands are truly free.

[Frank]

@Snowboarder Bo

TYM, this was private land. It’s written up in all the news stories that the land belongs to the Child’s family. It’s referred to over and over as the Child’s Ranch. The owner is quoted in several of the news stories. The police talking over the infrared video in the news story make mention that some of the participants are now on public land. It’s a big part of the story, and you didn’t even know it.

Then you should be able to cite it and quote it. I’ve gone back and reread the news articles cited in this thread. (Blogs and message boards are not news articles.) They mention that the site was called Child’s Ranch. That does not prove it is private property. Many places in Colorado are still called X’s ranch, though they are no longer privately owned. They do not state that the land is owned by the Child family. They do not have quotes from the owner. Certainly, it’s possible that I missed it. If so, you should be able to show me where it was. Feel free.

There are a lot more facts to this story than just whether it was private or public land. Most of these facts demonstrate that you and mswas, in arguing your case, are wrong.

[Skywatcher]

@Snowboarder Bo

There’s more than one MG permit needed.

That’s what I said–one from the county and second one from the state. I took it upon myself to see what permits were required and in doing so found a reference to someone going to the county health department to file a county MG permit request.

[Skywatcher]

Toole County Health Department - Mass Gathering Permit Request Form (PDF)

I’m guessing the one for Utah County is similar.

[Frankenstein_Monster]

Here’s how, this one time, a number of different countries dealt with a rave:

Prague, Czechoslovakia… Without warning, riot police attached the crowd, starting a riot that lasted hours…

Toronto, Canada… police with knives and horses waded into the celebration to pop the balloons (!)…

Turku, Finland… the police didn’t interfere: no problem with your illegal demo, but please a big less volume.

Utrecht, Netherlands… The police didn’t interfere and even helped set-up the generator for the sound system…

Stark differences!

Look, I know that the U.S. is an oppressive police state, right up there with the vicious U.K. authoritarian monarchy, and one notch below the tyrannical dictatorship of Belgium… right? Hey, in reality, I just lament incidents of oppression and infringement on freedom no matter where they happen.

As for the incident under discussion, here’s the one thing I actually deplore: reading the Utah police department’s version, anybody else feel it shows an appalling prejudice against rave parties? It seems obvious to me that the party was targeted for oppression ahead of time due to prejudices at the sheriff’s office. Rave parties aren’t all that bad. What went wrong here was just poor judgment at this particular sheriff’s office.

[Weirddave]

Damnit, where is mswas? Nobody’s frothing hysterically anymore and the thread has gotten a lot less amusing. Come back, Erik, come back!

[Xploder]

@Weirddave

Damnit, where is mswas? Nobody’s frothing hysterically anymore and the thread has gotten a lot less amusing. Come back, Erik, come back!

We wish…

[Skywatcher]

@Frankenstein Monster

As for the incident under discussion, here’s the one thing I actually deplore: reading the Utah police department’s version, anybody else feel it shows an appalling prejudice against rave parties? It seems obvious to me that the party was targeted for oppression ahead of time due to prejudices at the sheriff’s office. Rave parties aren’t all that bad.

The law is the law. Attend an event notorious for law-breaking behavior and you should not be surprised if John Law comes barging in. If you disagree with the law, push get it changed instead of giving The Man the finger.

[VegemiteMoose]

@Weirddave

Damnit, where is mswas? Nobody’s frothing hysterically anymore and the thread has gotten a lot less amusing. Come back, Erik, come back!

For Weirddave

[channeling mswas]Oh yeah, fuck you too! I just wanna take my drugs, turn up the music really loud anywhere I damn well feel like it and you’re the one calling me selfish!11!! LOL Then the Man comes in with his ASSAULT RIFLES and FATIGUES - and ummm oh yeah CAMPING!! - and … it’s my goddamn right to PEACEABLEY [del]DISSEMBLE[/del] ASSEMBLE!!11! So get off my back you hypocritical apologist for the MAN![/channeling mswas]

There ya go.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@This Year's Model

Then you should be able to cite it and quote it. I’ve gone back and reread the news articles cited in this thread. (Blogs and message boards are not news articles.) They mention that the site was called Child’s Ranch. That does not prove it is private property. Many places in Colorado are still called X’s ranch, though they are no longer privately owned. They do not state that the land is owned by the Child family. They do not have quotes from the owner. Certainly, it’s possible that I missed it. If so, you should be able to show me where it was. Feel free.

There are a lot more facts to this story than just whether it was private or public land. Most of these facts demonstrate that you and mswas, in arguing your case, are wrong.

You must have missed the part in the televised news story (the RealMedia file) where the police said they were charging the land owners with violations, then. And the part where the officer says that it spilled over onto public land, while they watch with IR.

And you must have missed this article in all the fact-finding you did:

About 90 law enforcement officers from multiple agencies broke up what they said was a rave party on public and private property in the Diamond Fork area of Spanish Fork canyon.

cite

And you must have missed this one in all you research efforts:

This is the second time landowner Trudy Childs has had to deal with a party fiasco. During a concert in July, Childs said police came in, broke up a concert and roughed up some of the partygoers.
Childs leased out part of her 350 acres for this weekend’s party but didn’t attend. She was hunting on another part of her land — but went to the site when she saw there was a problem. That’s when she was cuffed and taken to jail for allegedly contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
The land has been in Childs’ family for almost 80 years, and she said she is continuing her plans for an outdoor amphitheater, for future concerts and shows.

cite

This article seems to have escaped your awe-inspiring research skills as well:

The gathering took place near the mouth of Diamond Fork in a 50-acre hay field Trudy Childs had leased to the promoter.

cite

That enough cites for you? Will you admit that the party was on private property now?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Lute Skywatcher

That’s what I said–one from the county and second one from the state. I took it upon myself to see what permits were required and in doing so found a reference to someone going to the county health department to file a county MG permit request.

What you said was

@Lute Skywatcher

Not really. This being an outdoor event, it would have required two mass gathering permits. One from the county health department and a second one from the state.

And what I said was, you’re wrong. It takes a county health permit, and a state MG permit, and a county MG permit. Three permits, not two.

Again, I don’t mean this as a slam, just a correction. That’s all.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

Another quote that I thought was relevant, from the same editorial I cited above

Having said that, however, we are concerned about the process that led to this raid, starting with Utah County permits. Commissioner Steve White was strangely evasive on this question. When asked point-blank whether a mass-gathering permit had been issued, he said he would not answer. He referred the Herald to law enforcement sources and the county attorney’s office.

Childs, the property owner, said all the permits were in order and that officers seized them at the gate. It was a legal gathering, she said.

To be sure, there were a number of drug- and alcohol-related arrests and citations arising from the rave. These are fair game by any measure. Once a crime is committed, a permit may be considered null and void. But of the 43 citations reported by the Utah County Sheriff’s Office, about half appear directly related to the raid itself – disorderly conduct, failure to disperse and related acts. Most of the others could have been dealt with on a case-by-case basis, without shutting down a concert at which the majority were not breaking the law.

A massive police assault on virtually any public gathering (a BYU football game, for example) would uncover similar illegalities, from drugs to weapons to expired driver’s licenses. But if a crime is committed during a BYU football game, the game is not stopped. Offenders are trundled off individually. A general suspicion that something illegal might happen at a public gathering, even a rave, may not be the best basis from which to launch a major law enforcement action.

Childs said she has retained an attorney to pursue the matter. It’s a sticky wicket that illustrates some of the ambiguities inherent in a free society and the balance between freedom and responsibility.

cite