So if we do this democratically then whoever has more people should win out right? If not done democratically, then we might have to examine (gasp) the concept that there are special interest groups that have it out for raves.
Jesus people, it was a CAMPGROUND, one for which we don’t know for sure if the rave could be heard from, and if it could if it was a cacophony or a faint throbbing in the distance. It wasn’t a suburb, it wasn’t a residential area, it was OUT IN THE DESERT! The news said that rave was just about out of hand, as far as raves go, it was pretty damned calm until the police showed up, if that video is to be believed.
Please, try and compute this. They come for us when we are in the desert, they come for us when we are in a warehouse in an industrial district, they come for us when we are deep in the woods where you have to hike to get there.
Do you know where they don’t come for us? High-Rise apartments with reinforced walls? Do you know why? Because Rich people don’t need to worry about this sort of thing, they can have any wild raucous baccanalian bash that they want with impunity. I know, because I’ve been to some parties where there is no worry about the police busting it, and I’ve been to parties where it got busted, it’s almost always based on class and income.
Can you defend any of your arguments on your own, or “just by what my friend posted”?
You made the argument that shutting down the Rave was a violation of the First Amendment. Since you made the argument, it’s up to you to support it, which you haven’t done, at all. Am I missing something here?
We were talking about legalizing drugs, even for minors, not “talking” about substance use/abuse with our young’uns. My parents allowed us to drink alcohol (beer, and the occasional galss of wine on Sundays), in extreme moderation and under supervised conditions. This led us to being able to deal with alcohol in a reasonable, responsible manner when, inevitably, it showed up at unsupervised teen parties.
On the scale of social ills, I’d be a lot more concerned about clean, free drinking water, food, and shelter for homeless people before I’d worry about supporting the drug addictions of teenagers.
Or, they could just not take E. I reject the attitude that kids are just going to do it anyway. Sure, some are. But not all.
Man. Talk about a tough decision. 9 & 10 are both kind of vague, we could probably get by without those.
No. Just because we live in a democracy does not mean that the mob rules. Just because the ravers out number the campers does not give the ravers the right to do anything they want. Sorry, doesn’t work that way.
You do realize, don’t you, that camp grounds have noise rules? At least every camp ground I’ve been to and I’ve been to a lot of them.
Or could it be that you don’t annoy the shit out of other people because the walls are thick and you don’t disturb anyone? It ain’t about money, asshat. Nor is it about class.
This is by far the most intelligent thing you’ve said in this thread.
Why all of a sudden the harping about a campground and the rights of the ravers vs. the rights of the campers. According to the media stories quoted here, that was not even an issue that the police were concerned about.
The violations that were specifically targeted were:
[ul]
[li]A large gathering without the required permits[/li][li]Underage drinking[/li][li]Open use of illegal drugs[/li][li]Underage sexual activity[/li][/ul] From what we’ve seen here, there may be some confusion about whether or not they thought they had all the permits, so we’ll come back to that later.
The other two items, whether you like it or not, are against the law. You are free to do all in your power to change the law, but for now it is the law.
I don’t think it’s at all unreasonable for police to go into a gathering of that size carrying weapons. They had no idea what force would be directed back to them and they wanted to be prepared for any eventuality. I think it’s significant that there has been no mention of any of these weapons being fired, or even pointed at anyone.
As far as the permits, it is perfectly legal and customary for state, county and city governments to require permits for large gatherings. This does not interfere with free speech, but allows them to plan for things which may get out of hand, which they did in this case.
I realize that having beefed up police presence there would maybe hamper your plans to engage in illegal activities, but that’s too bad. It would probably have prevented the raid and the closing down of your precious rave, but that’s not really what you want, is it?
Damn, I can’t count the number of “secret” keggers we had in high school that got busted. Never really thought much of it, we were busted by cops with guns.
I do know that we never whined like little bitches when we got popped.
Actually, in quite a few of the first person accounts there are mentions of guns being pointed at people. There are also now allegations by at least 4 women present that they were sexually assaulted by officers, including one who says she was hustled into a port-a-potty to be assaulted while another officer stood guard outside.
If you watch the video that was taped by a raver, you can clearly hear an officer tell the filmer to put the camera down or he will be arrested. I’m not sure what the charge would be, but you can hear the comment clearly towards the 2 minute mark.
My take on the whole thing is, mswas, you had yer rant. Leave off until you have more facts to discuss. To those who’ve been dissing and supportive of the police: leave off until you have more facts. Because right now, there aren’t many. Blind support for the police is just as stupid as blind support for the ravers. Police sometimes lie and do fucked up shit… or have you already forgotten what happened in the tube in London? Or what happened to Amadou Diallo?
The initial adrenaline rush, by ravers and by haters, should be long over with by now. It’s time to admit that we don’t know everything, seek information, and proceed with a more knowledgable discussion.
Jeezis, you’re an idiot. Once the cops decided to shut the thing down, they could have shown up wearing Dior ball gowns and the outcome would have been the same: the fucking thing would be shut down. Of course the uniforms and gear of riot police are designed to look intimidating; it helps move the easily swayed along faster without having to resort to breaking heads.
Now, now. I must be able to read at least a little; I’ve managed to wade through and comprehend the heaping piles of tripe you’ve spewed into this thread so far.
You know, despite the insane level of hyperbole and vitriolic gibbering you’ve exhibited in this thread, I’ve been generally accepting that the routine shutting down of raves, if indeed such is taking place may indeed be something of an overreaction. What you haven’t shown as yet, as previously pointed out by me and others, is how this is any different, in degree or extent, from the usual “community standards” repressive crap that has gone on for decades. If you can ever find the time, maybe you could address that point for us.
Whatever happens, please do continue to heap abuse on every person who does not happen to instantly agree with every silly thing you say, though. It makes your arguments so much more compelling.
Seeing as they were law enforcement officers (not soldiers,) and that Jefferson and Hamilton were both strong deists in the Christian tradition, they’d probably say “Good.”
And you assume that 90 against 1000+ is excessive? What would have been excessive is if they’d sent in the 19th SFG. 800 well trained Special Forces operators on 1000 kids. That’s excessive. 90 cops isn’t.
Well, as several other people have pointed out, the site of this rave isn’t quite in the middle of nowhere, seeing as there are legal and fully permitted/sanctioned campgrounds around it.
Well, Capone and his gang went to great lenghts to hide their illegal activites too. The police did their damndest to stop them. The reason it’s called “Law Enforcement” is because “Law Enforcement Officers” enforce the law.
So, the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, the NAACP, and their ilk are now tyrants, because they forced the governemnt to change the law to suit them. Hmmm, I think I’ll tell my black roommate that he’s a tyrant now.
Listen jackass. If you watched the video, you know it isn’t an assault rifle. An assault rifle is a long arm which uses an intermediate sized cartridge and has select fire capabilties. The weapons in the video are clearly H&K MP-10S submachine guns.
I’ve watched not only the video you showed, but a few other ones taken by different people. In one, a kid who was being “beaten” according to the cameraman was swinging on two cops when a third blindsided him, put a knee in his back, and cuffed him. Another guy who kept on saying “I’m not resisting” kept struggling as another pair of officers tried to cuff him. The one that really shows how “brutal” the cops were at this rave was one I saw where the cameraman was all over the cops, one guy wearing a balacalava says “Get the fuck out of here or you’re going with him” as he points to a cuffed raver. The cameraman complied and Goddamnit! The cop let him go! Oh, the humanity.
Please, do me a favor, get your heads out of your fucknig asses.
Oh, and BTW, ExTank you fucking :wally I am severely anti-gun control, we need to have weapons to shoot those cops if they aren’t reined in. That’s what the second amendment is for, to protect the other 9, despite what all your armchair philosophy trying to twist the idea of personal freedom and rights until they are absolutely meaningless might tell you.
Again, I have NO PROBLEM going out of your faces, I WANT to get out of your faces, but the cops follow us. They follow us when there are no soundsystems. At the Rainbow Gathering, a gathering that is in national forests, where we have the right to gather, where no one brings ANY sound systems, and the people leave the land in better shape than almost any other campers, STILL gets fucked with by the cops. They follow us everywhere we go, so don’t act like this shit doesn’t happen.
The internet may have blessed me with the ability to get venture capital much more easily than my parents, but the truth of the matter is, I am on my way to being far and away more wealthy than my father is, and this is the sort of thing I am going to bend my will and my checkbook toward.
Believe me, I am not going to resist arrest stupidly. I have friends who do copwatch here in New York, where they harass the Critical Mass bikeriders. They harass people RIDING BIKES in the streets. They politicized what was a family event for 15 years, now people are getting arrested regularly at these events, and children can no longer come. The copwatch people have it down to a science, and have gotten MANY police on record and even shown where during the RNC, the Police DOCTORED EVIDENCE to fuck with people, over a THOUSAND cases were thrown out.
Get your head out of the sand, this isn’t isolated, and it’s not just a matter of disaffected youth as much as you might need to believe that so that you don’t have to accept that we are in the midst of a geo-political shift.
One thing I find telling is that it’s mostly Americans who are trying to defend the police behavior in this. Most non-Americans I know take it as common knowledge that the American government is one of the most oppressive governments in the world.
I like this particular bait-and-switch. They are both soldiers. See, we’re not talking about the Rangers (its the 75th Infantry Regiment, aka the Rangers. Its not “Army Rangers.”) and Delta (it’s 1st SFG, Detachment Delta. Not Delta Force. Delta Force was a series of awful movies with Chuck Norris.) You seem to want to equate law enforcement with the military. As Special Agent Chris Whitcomb said once, citing the reason that the FBI started the Hostage Rescue Team, “Delta doesn’t use handcuffs.”
A lot of reasons. Why couldn’t police stick to straight leg trousers, polished shoes, and Sam Browne style web belts? Cost, effectiveness, a bevy of reasons. As far as the difference between ‘military’ and ‘police’ camo BDU’s, they all come from the same manufacturer and follow NATO guideline SPO100-01-D-0302 and DoD standard 8415-01-393.
Actually, I’d rather see a guy in BDU’s with an SP armband. The cops here in Richland County wear black nomex everywhere. Creepy. :rolleyes:
So, that goes to show that the law DOES work, right? Excessive force equates to legal victory.
Eh. I doubt you could name one street in Bagdhad without Googling a map. Or a neighborhood besides Abu Gharib. Just because people can’t see in to your own little (and fairly illegal, aparently) niche, doesn’t mean that they’re ‘blissfully ignorant.’
So, you try to keep your culture a secret to avoid ‘the man,’ and you lament the fact that people are ignorant of it. Pity. :o
~SSgt. Frank J. Mang, lifetime member of the vast right wing conspiracy, and loyal servant to “They”
There are also several reports of people being severely mauled by dogs, yet no one showed up at the hospital to be treated for bites. Funny that.
The roomate of the promoter appeared on a local morning radio show this morning and asked for people to stop embellishing their stories. He mentioned there was a lot of that going on in the website they made for people to put there expierances in. It only hurts there case. As he pointed out, the truth will come out.
The charge would be refusing to obey an order. The camera man was told to before he was told to put the camera down. He said he was going, but instead stood around filming. Contrary to a lot of first hand stories I’ve read about it, he was not told to hand the camera over.
1 to 7? That’s a rather coarse ranking. Your list (this one [PDF], right?) has 20-30 countries ranking the same. USA ranks the same as Uruguay.
Here is another freedom index. USA ranks twenty-second here. That’s below Bosnia and Herzegovina. Note also how much higher the real civilized countries in the world are ranking.
Again you’re trading on false preconceptions about freedom in other countries - why shouldn’t Bosnia have good press freedom? Your own link describes the USA and Canada as “scoring well”. And when you plot the scores, you see that the difference between first and 22nd is tiny. Plus, countries fall down for non-governmental factors; the UK is in 28th primarily due to paramilitary intimidation in Northern Ireland.
So basically, you’ve demonstrated another area in which the USA is remarkably free, and shown that two other countries are surprisingly free. You’re not going very far towards showing oppression, I have to say.
I was only referring to the mass gathering permits, therefore I wasn’t wrong. From what I could find, the county mass gathering permits are also issued by the health department.