How astonishing that the “most oppressive government in the world” allows people to bitch and complain and not-so-subtlely encourage rebellion against it!
How amazing that “the most oppressive government in the world” didn’t just mow down all those kids and be done with it! Instead, they give them due process in the courts! Inconcievable!
Just out of curiosity Mswas . You have made several comments like this in the thread that are making me wonder…
Was this one of your productions?
You also keep referring to this event as a “party”. With all of your claimed business saavy how could you see this as anything but a commercial enterprise .
Also WRT to your claim of police “protection money” you do realize that if on duty police officers are doing the patdowns and searches on patrons that the police department pretty much accepts responsibility for anything that gets through. How much better insurance do you want against illegal activities jeopardizing your event.
Or are you worried that nobody will come if subjected to police scrutiny because they can’t easily bring in drugs, alcohol, weapons, or stay out past curfew getting laid by intoxicated 13 year olds.
I was gonna add something to my suggestion that TPTB change certain persons member status to raving loony, but after this fine refutation of one of mswas’s statements, I no longer think it’s necessary.
mswas and to a certain extent, snowboarder bo, but only to a certain extent because he had the intelligence to drop out of this trainwreck, certainly deserve the title of raving loont when it comes to raves.
The thing you seem to misapprehend is the part about the drug war. The drug war is what woudl horrify Jefferson and Hamilton. If you tighten your stomach muscles realy hard, your head pops right out of your ass, like magic.
Ok, what I have learned from this thread. Popping Ecstasy bad, government ignoring constitution, reasonable.
Thanks all, you’ve uplifted my soul.
Erek
Well, first off, I have said that I WOULD pay the police their protection money. What I am railing against is HAVING TO, because it’s a violation of the right to peaceable assembly. Every party I’ve ever been to like this is pretty peaceable.
My scene is largely over the age of 21 and almost entirely over the age of 18.
I understand why in the case of practicality in this system that I should pay police protection money for the same reason I would understand it if I lived on a block that the mafia controlled. Doesn’t mean I have to like it.
No it was not my event. I choose to get incensed about horrific behavior that COULD affect me in teh future, and try to stamp it out before everyone who might step up to stand with me is already crushed down. A friend of mine pointed out that this happens when an underground music style becomes mainstream, the “man” tries to quash it. For some reason people here think that claiming the people in the 60s got over this “dementia” when they grew up is ludicrous. Abby Hoffman really WAS fucked with by the CIA.
What about MK Ultra , where the CIA used LSD for mind control experiments in the 60s? People act like this shit didn’t ACTUALLY happen in the 60s as well, and that we are just the NEW generation of paranoid hippies. Those hippies were paranoid with good reason.
Ravenman:
Do you realize the difference between a Rebellion and a Rave? I surely hope that you do. Hamilton’s master, George Washington grew pot, Raves do not threaten law and order, Ecstasy doesn’t threaten law and order, the only thing that threatens law and order are ridiculous laws that infringe upon people’s personal freedoms for no fucking reason.
I have a great quote from Einstein bookmarked in this History of Opium book that I own, just because I generally assume that the average Doper doesn’t understand this concept one iota.
MGibson: Is there a democratic way to resolve the issue of the camp? Like if there are MORE ravers who want to go to a rave than there are campers who want to camp, then the rave wins out, otherwise it is the ‘selfish’ few, trying to impose their will on the larger collective will?
A thing that most of you who know nothing about this culture leave out completely is that these are community building events. Most of my work is done with other “ravers”. We live communally (keeps costs down) and have the ability to go all over the world and have a place to stay, sometimes even without knowing anyone before we get there.
The government regularly goes after what is arbitrarily termed as “Counter-culture”, which is anything that isn’t straight laced white America. So it’s not that the “industry” is out to stop raves, but that larger commercial ventures are much more easily capable of paying the right protection money, affording the right lawyers, etc… Most promoters I know lose money regularly, and aren’t in it for the money, but it’s nice to make some once in a while. A lot of these issues actually drive up costs and FORCE people to take on a commercial infrastructure in order to keep from bankrupting themselves if they want to throw a large party. Me personally, I have yet to make any money on a party, I mean sometimes enough to buy dinner for a bunch of people, but we’ve lost sums of money doing it in the past.
Basically, what was thrown at this party was total overkill, it was a misuse of the police force, and could have been accomplished with a couple squad cars and bored redneck street cops. They didn’t need the amped elite redneck battle guards to take down the ravers. This is of course taking the tack that there was something wrong with this party. Like I said, if there were fewer than 1500 campers at the camp site, I say tough shit. Salt Lake City is one of the quietest towns I’ve been to.
Erek
Do me a favor and pick up “Hitler and the Power of Aesthetics” then come back to me and tell me if you think there is more of a difference between SWAT and National Guard in battle gear, and soldiers than the style of their uniforms. They are changing the uniform to remind us that we are living under martial law, a perpetual martial law.
If you can’t see the writing on the wall now, I hope it doesn’t break your heart when you finally learn to read.
It’s already been explained to you. Regulating commercial activity (such as a Rave) does not generally violate the First Amendment right to peaceful assembly. Nothing in your posts, or in any of the links, have fuckall to do with the 1st Amendment. Why do you keep insisting that they do?
And it’s been explained to you that not every rave that gets shut down is a commercial event. It’s amazing that you’re too stupid to understand that right? See I can be condescending too.
In this particular context, I think the more important argument is the one about whether it is “RIGHT” that they used that amount of force, or that they used force at all. I think that it’s worse for our society to have this sort of police presence than it is for little girls to go do Ecstasy. All of the problems I have heard of being attributed to Raves are problems with society at large, and none are limited to raves. For the most part people have completely ignored ANYTHING I have said about the culture, and all they see is “Gee, man make money spinning vinyl disk, government must regulate money in order to appease stockholders.” The force was way excessive, it punished KIDS for not knowing how to manipulate the system properly.
You all are so wrapped up in the idea of “The System” that you don’t sit back take a deep breath and realize that these are KIDS trying to have FUN, and that maybe if you don’t agree with this style of fun, you’d be better suited to look at the root causes that might cause a kid to want to enter into this sort of activity. Most of you haven’t even bothered to look into any of this, know nothing of the culture, and completely ignore it when anyone tries to explain it to you.
There is the more mainstream rave culture, where people go that don’t know jack shit about it, and want to check it out, these are commercial ventures, and yes, this party WAS a commercial venture, it was one of those. THey are more impersonal, and as any impersonal venue with inebriated strangers, danger CAN occur. However, the reality is, that there are lots of more intimate events of people and their social networks, where they actually DO care about the people at the event, and go to great lengths to make sure that people have a good time and are safe at the event, large amounts of drugs or not. However, both aspects are targeted, we are all painted with the same brush, when we have NO CONTROL over whether or not someone who is an asshole can buy a sound system and go out and play techno for people, but for some reason we are lumped in with them, with all of these laws that are designed to “Pre-empt” crime, rather than arrest only the people responsible for the crime.
Erek
That’s a laugh.
If they wanted to do this, they’d need to be stealthy about it, no? And that would entail preserving outward differences between the uniforms, and eliminating the real differences between the military and the police.
The opposite is happening here. SWAT teams use different tactics than the military. If the uniforms look similar, it is because organizational clothing tends to look alike. BDU-style uniforms are very practical, so everybody seems to use them. And helmets look alike, too, because they share a common purpose. There are only minor differences between them
hehe
Well, I didn’t drop out entirely; I’m still reading along.
I’m smart enough to realize that I didn’t have all the facts about this particular incident, tho, and smart enough to realize that I won’t do myself any good by shooting my mouth off continually without knowing exactly what I’m talking about.
I’m still trying to dig some of this up, but at this point it appears that the promoters were required to have three permits (sorry, Lute, but you were wrong on this count, also): a county health permit, a state mass gathering permit, and a county mass gathering permit. The state MG permit, btw, is for more than 500 people, but the county MG is for more than 250. The county mass gathering permit can only be granted by a vote of the county commission, and that is the permit that the police say was lacking. The promoters seem to be saying that they were told by the county health depratment that they had all the required permits. I don’t know all of this for sure, but that’s the best information I have right now.
In any case, I still believe that the tactics used by the police were way over the top and were done as an attempt to terrorize and frighten the promoters and participants. They had confirmation by midday that the county MG permit had not been granted, but instead of setting up road blocks and stopping cars when they saw that the premises were obviously over-populated, they chose in advance to contact 2 external SWAT forces, plus other external law enforcement, and show up in an air drop with automatic weapons. The undercover police reported evidence of underage drinking and illegal drug possession, and IMO the tactics used were more than was necessary to break up this event. The police themselves state that within 30 minutes of their arrival the place was empty, so it was hardly an out-of-control situation that required a show of such massive force.
According to their reports, the police in Utah County have been watching the rave scene for months, and IMO they saw this as an opportunity to scare the little baby jeebus so these darn kids won’t try and party in their neck of the woods. As I stated early on, there has been quite an effort to outlaw raves over the past 10 years or so; these events are very unpopular in certain circles (see cites in post #30).
If the promoters have the money and can find a legal team, it may very well be that the county permit process is declared an unreasonable burden or somesuch. We’ll just have to wait and see how that plays out in the courts.
Here is an e-mail I received just now on the subject of whether or not it is constitutional. I am not a lawyer, and a lot of it is over my head.
In my opinion, the Utah County Ordinance applicable to "large public
assemblies" is facially invalid. This is with respect to its bonding
requirements,
which are unconstitutional under well-settled First Amendment case law,
IMHO. A copy of that ordinance, Article 13-4,. Large Public Assemblies, is
at http://www.utahcountyonline.com/apps/WebLink/Dept/ATTY/Chap13.pdf,
.
First, without considering any of the constitutional issues, there is a
question of whether the putative rave party
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_2961967
with “two hundred fifty (250) or more people” was “reasonably” “expected to
continue for twelve hours (12) or more consecutive hours.”
If not, it appears that no permit was required. § 13-4-2-1. Although I
have some issues with the wording of § 13-4-2-1, I am going to generously
assume, arguendo, that this and other provisions of the ordinance are
otherwise
constitutional.
Moving on to the provisions of a bond in § 13-4-2-4, there is a strong
argument that the provisions of this section are unconstitutional.
§ 13-4-2-4.provides, in pertinent part:
Before any license shall be issued under the
provisions of this Division, a bond in an amount as
determined by the Board of County Commissioners,
but not less than one thousand dollars ($1,000.00),
shall be filed by the applicant with the County Clerk.
Such bond shall be conditioned for the prompt
cleaning up of any debris or waste material produced
or left by the assembly.
By its own terms, § 13-4-2-4 vests unfettered discretion in the Board of
County Commissioners to fix the maximum amount of the bond. For this
reason, it constitutes an impermissible prior restraint on free speech…
Moreover, the ordinance is also unconstitutional because it utterly fails
“articulate any standards for fixing [the] amount.” Forsyth County, Ga. v.
Nationalist Movement, 505 U.S. 123 at 133, (1992)
http://laws.findlaw.com/us/505/123.html; see, also, Steele v. City of
Bemidji, 257 F.3d 902, 8th Cir. (2001)
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/8th/003348p.pdf.
Needless to say, IMHO, the County's actions to enforce an allegedly
unconstitutional ordinance are justicable under the provisions of 42 U.S.C.
§ 1983 http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=42&sec=1983.
Both a United States District Court and a state court would have concurrent
jurisdiction, although the federal court is probably the more favorable
forum in Utah. This is subject to the caveat that state officials, however,
enjoy Eleventh Amendment protection, with respect to litigation of pendant
state law claims in federal court, IMHO.
It mist be pointed out, however, that whether an ordinance is
unconstitutional and whether there was misconduct by law enforcement
officials, are two separate, although related, legal issues. Merely because
an officer unwittingly enforces an ordinance subsequently rendered nugatory
by a court, does not, by itself, impose § 1983 liability, IMHO.
Police misconduct cases litigated as constitutional torts have become
increasingly difficult to win, way before 9/11. See, Schwartz, et al,
Section 1983 Civil Rights Litigation (20th Annual Handbook).(2003),
Practising Law Institute
http://www.pli.edu/product/book_detail.asp?ptid=503&stid=28&id=EN00000000000531.
Although it is not necessary to file a notice of claim with a state or
local government under state or local law, as a prerequisite to commencing
litigation under § 1983, the timely failure to promptly do so might vitiate
any pendant state or local law claims asserted in court against government
officials,
IMHO.
Do you have a cite that this Rave, or any other, has ever been shut down for reasons found to be in violation of the First Amendment? No? Then kindly quiet yourself about the “right to peaceably assemble”, of which you obviously know nothing about.
Umm…So you are saying that because their tactics are different they are different?
So would you say that Delta Force and Army Rangers are not both soldiers because their tactics are different?
Why couldn’t the police have stuck with DARK BLUE BDUs? Why do they need CAMO, BDUs? Also, do you think that the average 17 year old is trained to tell the difference between military and police camo BDUs? Hell do you think the average 40 year old is?
I can see a reason for making it all look like Army Fatigues, and that’s so people get used to a constant MILITARY presence, that is FAR more intimidating than a cop walking down the street, even though I know lots of people who are afraid of cops, like my friend that was thrown through a plate glass window by one at a protest, he won a court settlement for it BTW.
The thing I’ve realized from this thread is that most people have no fucking clue what’s going on in this country, they are blissfully ignorant. The main reason I post here is to get an idea of what the “average” American thinks, because I find that this a good cross-section of Americans, maybe a bit on the geeky side, which often has a bias against party culture, but all the same I find it’s a pretty good cross-section of the populace by and large. The profound ignorance about Rave culture in this thread is dominant.
Erek
Maybe the system is too complex if one has to be a lawyer to understand it. See I take things at face value, I don’t buy my opinions from overpaid semantic tricksters. If it’s a peaceful assembly, then I have the right to assemble, it’s that simple.
Oh well, mswas has an EMAIL, guess that’s it. You win, carry on. :rolleyes:
So far I’ve heard that the Right to Peacefully Assemble requires esoteric knowledge that is beyond the scope of the words “Peaceful” and “Assemble”
That a handful campers who pay the ironic ‘fee’ to camp on “PUBLIC” land have a greater amount of rights per capita than HUNDREDS OF Ravers gathered on PRIVATE Adjoining land.
No one has even bothered to debate the sheer ridiculousness of needing a permit to have people gather on land that you OWN.
That paying the government protection money is what being a good citizen is all about.
Gee, you all have shown me the error of my ways. I’m so glad that those cops were there to stick assault rifles into the faces of 17 year olds, warms my heart.
Erek
Bolding mine.
So now we get to your real point. “Fuck everyone else, we have a right to PARTY!!!” Didn’t the Beastie Boys write a song about that once?
You, my dear fucktard, are a whiny paranoid ignorant little ass.
Slee
If you are incapable of arguing based upon merits, then please check out Troll. I posted something that someone sent me. If you wish to read it do so if not then don’t but if you don’t then having an opinion on it is only arguing with me out of sheer competitiveness, and not because you actually CARE about or BELIEVE in the words you are typing.
Erek
“Fuck everyone else, we have the right to camp in quiet!”, I don’t see how your argument is any different? What is inherently more selfish about wanting to party, than in wanting to camp quietly? I think I am not understanding your twisted hypocritical morality.
Erek
In other words, no cite. Got it.