Personal Responsibility ( a real life example )

Great Debates
1

In light of the recent drug threads I am soliciting the opinions of members concerning my responsibility in this situation from my life.

My wife is Catholic and before our marriage we “lived in sin”. When we met with the priest about the ceremony I gave him a false address to conceal the fact. My wife’s friend agreed to pretend that I lived with her and recieved some mail for us. I don’t know what would have been the repercusions from the priest if he knew of our indiscretion, perhaps he would still have married us. My wife’s maternal aunt was not allowed to marry in the church because she was pregnant. I believe that this was not due to church doctrine but because my wife’s grandfather disapproved.
My mother-in-law volunteers at the church. My wife didn’t want her to be embarrassed by a scandal.

My thinking at the time was that I didn’t have a moral problem with premarital cohabitation and I didn’t want to make waves with my new in-laws.
I lied to the priest.

Was I avoiding personal responsibility?
If so, how is this a bad thing?

2

I don’t think that’s the right question. If you answer the first question “yes,” you immediately want to know the answer to the second. That means you have a conflict between personal and religous belief systems. The problem is, you wanted to receive a sacrament, a rite that is solely available within the context of the Roman Catholic Church. In order to do this, you have to play by their rules. In order to do that, you had to lie, which is to break their rules all over again, but, perhaps more importantly, you had to break your own, too. I take it that you would prefer, in any given situation, not to lie unless you felt it was a necessary means to a more important end.

That’s always a difficult choice, but most of us have to make it at some point in our lives. Your wife shares responsibility; she was living in sin, too. And it sounds like she’s the one who is more bound by Catholicism that you. Having grown up Catholic, I think it would have been better if you had been clear with a priest (maybe not that particular one) to find out what your options were. That’s no longer an issue. Here’s the thing: I don’t see why you can’t confess–even to another priest, outside that particular parish–and receive absolution. This would put you right under the Church’s system, and, with hope, your own accountability system. I don’t think the marriage would be annulled; you might be saying “Hail Mary’s” for some time to come, though.

But maybe that’s not what you’re asking. If you’re asking was it wrong to “live in sin” by your own personal code of responsibility, only you can decide that, of course. Personally, I think not living with the one you plan to marry before you marry her/him is risky. I’ve known several people who were certain their partner was “the one,” only to find out how wrong they were as soon as they started to live together. This surprises me, but I would definitely want to live with my partner before taking the plunge, even after we “knew” eachother. Things are different not only when you start to make love, but share the same roof, pay bills together, marry your bank accounts, etc. It represents an enormous jump in intensity and maturity. It can be difficult, very difficult, and all kinds of things can come up, especially when it’s all hinging on one, big, declaritive ceremony. Of course, it can be bliss, too :slight_smile: . But personally, I’d need a little experience before taking the plunge.

That being said, if you’re a Catholic, you have to play by Catholic rules. And it sounds like you are, so go talk to a priest not so close to your family, and see what he says. I know of a couple that was in your position, and they were able to consult with a priest and work things out, but I’m not sure what that entailed. Good luck.

3

2sense,

I’m not a Catholic, so I can’t really comment on that side of it.

I do have a few points:

Your questions suggest to me that you already have answered them yourself (if you see what I mean).

Was I avoiding personal responsibility?
If so, how is this a bad thing?

Yes, you were avoiding your responsibility.
Life is full of social commitments, especially through marriage. Your spouse’s family, religion and friends come ‘attached’ to the person you marry.
In this case, it’s unfortunate that you didn’t plan ahead, since living together first, then marrying in Church yet not embarrassing your mother-in-law is a (forseeable?) problem.
I assume your wife went along with the idea, which I appreciate was well-intentioned.
However you appear concerned by the situation, which I take as a sure sign you feel ‘guilty’.

The main reason it’s a bad thing is that this stuff usually comes out. (Watch any soap opera for more dramatic examples!)
If it does, it will cause far more upset than if you’d been straight in the first place.
Look at it this way. If you had told the priest everything to begin with, then at worst you wouldn’t have been allowed to marry in that church. OK, that’s the church’s responsibility (for its policy).
But now you’ve broken the church rules AND lied about it.

I should state that I feel this is a very mild thing, and I disapprove of e.g. software piracy (see another thread) far more. I just think that it’s easier and safer to be honest.

Hope it comes out all right.

4

I am not qualified to judge whether you avoided personal responsibility. We all have many responsibilities and obligations in our lives; we balance them in whatever ways we find most in keeping with our ethics and our consciences.

I do think you did something wrong. I think you lied in order to avoid the emotional cost of representing your life honestly to a person from whom you were asking a blessing. I also see nothing wrong with two adults living together without a religous sanction, but neither you nor I are officials of the Catholic Church. Our opinions carry no wieght when you are asking for the blessing of the Church.

Do I think this was a great sin. No. I doubt it will even rank among the worst things you do this decade. I think you made a mistake. I think you feel that way, too, or you would not have opened this thread. I wish you luck in coming to terms with it, however you choose to do so.

But most importantly, I wish you immense joy and a lifetime of love with your new wife. Congratulations.

5

I agree with 2cents (sorry if the name is wrong.) catholicism is wide and far reaching, and there is not anything which you and your partner could disagree with and still note anti catholichs

sorry that this isn’t more to the point. if y’all have any questions, feel free to contact me.
jb

6

If you have ever asked yourself why 2sense doesn’t start more threads, here is the reason: He does so poorly. His OPs are always lacking in some fashion because he overlooks information that is integral to the discussion he is looking for.
In this case, I have really mucked it up.

I am not looking for y’all to judge my ethics, although I have introduced them so you may. I wish to examine this situation to determine for myself if I am placing enough importance on honesty. I am not a Christian. I do not believe in any higher powers so my personal ethics have been determined by me. I was satisfied that my actions were in line with my expectations of myself. I value truth but not above all else. The question about my wedding ( which occured 4 years ago this Thursday ) that I want to argue about is whether or not I was dodging responsibility.
Anyway… thanks to all the people who answered so far. I could have prevented some confusion for you had I started this better. Sorry.

Sequent:
Your post was quite thoughtful. As you see, I am not a believer but I am looking for answers.
“I take it that you would prefer, in any given situation, not to lie unless you felt it was a necessary means to a more important end.”

This quote describes my feelings precisely.

glee:

I understand that people will sometimes become aware of lies and there will be repercussions. I think of it as the “3’s Company Rule”:
If a smooth guy like Jack Tripper can’t date 2 women at the same time then neither can you.

I am willing to accept the consequences of my actions should someone confront me with a lie. In this situation the worst outcome would have been not to be allowed to marry in that church. It was her family church. Her mother and sister were married there and she had dreamt of her wedding there since girlhood.

As for the living together, there wasn’t much choice. I lived in Lansing, she lived in Pittsburgh. I couldn’t afford to move there without living with her.

Spiritus Mundi,
I chose this example from my past to illustrate a question that I am asking myself since the drug testing thread I mentioned earlier. Questioning my moral code is not new for me. I do so occasionally to see if it needs modification.

I did lie in order to avoid emotional cost.
IMO the emotional cost was worth more than the truth.

jb_farley:

I hereby contact you.
What were you trying to say?

7

Fair enough. I’m confused, though. It seems as if you’ve thought this out and are comfortable with your decision. You know you avoided responsibility (emotional cost) but feel that decision was justified.

So what exactly are you asking?
Should you value truth more highly? How can we discuss that without examining your personal ETHIC, which you say was not the point?

8

Thanks again, Spiritus Mundi, for the reply.
You are correct, my ethics are the point. I was asking if you would explain your view to see if mine can be improved.

It is not that I am unsatisfied with myself in that situation.
I am wondering if I am taking enough responsibility in general.

I am not used to talking about this to anyone and I am sounding pretty incoherent.
In the end, I must decide for myself, so you may judge or not but any input would be appreciated.

9

2sense,

you posted ‘I am willing to accept the consequences of my actions should someone confront me with a lie. In this situation the worst outcome would have been not to be allowed to marry in that church. It was her family church. Her mother and sister were married there and she had dreamt of her wedding there since girlhood.’

First I am not criticising - we’re all human. But if it’s that important to your wife, maybe you should have looked ahead more.

‘As for the living together, there wasn’t much choice. I lived in Lansing, she lived in Pittsburgh. I couldn’t afford to move there without living with her.’

Ah, but there was a choice. Sleep on the couch.

Anyway good luck. Since you try to be an ethical person, and worry if you’re not, then you’re OK in my book. :slight_smile:

10

OK – my view:

Absolute honesty is nearly unfeasable in teh real world. Certainly the cost of valuing truth above all else is high, social tact and personal sensitivity are necessary to forming healthy and sustainable relationships with your fellow man. Sometimes honesty will have to be compromised.

Alternatively, if honesty is compromised too often then those same relationships will break down due to lack of trust. In addition, lack of integrity seems to lead almost inevitably to a breakdown in empathy with other people. Lies are a form of predation, and they diminish the importance of the audience in the teller’s perception. Interestingly, in my exerience the long-term effect of this is actually damaging to the self-image of the liar.

So, how to find the middle-ground.
For myself, I try to start from a position of honesty always, then make exceptions as individual circumstances warrant. I view empathy as the basis of my morality, so it would be self-destructive for me to begin at the other pole.

How to decide exceptions:

  1. They should be rare (exceptional). Is tautological, n’est pas?
  2. The telling factor has to be the social/emotional benefit to others weighed against the social/emotional cost to others. If I start lying for my own gain then I am a cad. If I tel a lie that benefits another and has a cost only to myself then I have made a choice of self-sacrifice. Of course, I am not at all certain such a scenario is even possible, since an integral part of the lie is placing your own judgment about another’s welfare above their right to self-determination.
  3. If any consequence of the lie serves to make my life more comfortable/easy, then it should be examined with extra care.

Applying those to your example:

  1. It does seem to be a rare case.

  2. Benefits: You wife got married where she wished. Her family had a ceremony they wanted. You avoided a possibly ugly confrontation with Church/in-laws.

Costs: These are more difficult. In any case we have:
Church officials gave their blessing to a union which was not truly eligible for it.
Those attendees of the ceremony with strong Catholic beliefs gave their blessing to a union that they might have found offensive, said blessing gained under false pretenses.
Your wife/in-laws have risked their standing within the church community by placing their desires above the rules of the church and by lying to the clergy and teh congregation.

Additional costs depend upon why your wife wanted to be married in that church. If it was only a question of tradition/family expectation, then the above probably covers it. If she desired the actual blessings of her religion then:
Your wife has cheapened one of the most important religious ceremonies in her life.
Your wife has posibly undermined one of the core supports of her married life: the blessing of her religion and religious community.
Obviously, the importance of the above depends upon the individual nature of your wife’s faith.

  1. You obviously gained a benefit from this. Does a careful reexamination of the circumstances confirm your original decision?
11

I had opened this intending to argue about the scenario and then decide for myself how I felt about it. It seems my disjointed ramblings have served me well for a change. These answers are much better.

I do still feel alright about my behavior. I need to think this over to let it sink in fully before I make a final judgement.
I do appreciate your sincere replies.