My girlfriend swears that all pet stores aquire thier dogs from so called “puppy mills” and for this reason boycots them all. While I’m not disputing the existance of such “puppy mills” and I’m sure that some unscrupulous people attain their dogs from such places, I fail to believe that every pet store owner could be so cold hearted. every web page I can find on the matter is ridden with animal rights activists fueled by nothing more than speculation. Does anyone out there have anything pertinant and factual to say on the matter? I realise that It’s always better to get a dog from a reputable breeder that can provide you with the animal’s family history, but that’s not what I’m asking so save it please. I just want to know if there are any humaine pet stores out there.
Well, your girlfriend is pretty much correct. Although not all so-called puppy mills are run like Nazi death camps some are.
Purebread dogs at mall pet stores are always less than half what a real breeder would charge, which means they didn’t get them from one.
It’s just economics. You get what you pay for. So-called ‘purebreads’ at pet shops are always of much lesser quality.
People who are serious about dogs don’t buy them at pet stores, they go to a reputable breeder. When Mom & Dad & Billy want a (sort-of) purebread for a pet they go to the pet shop.
actually I find them to be rediculously expensive, not cheaper… I’m looking for facts here, not speculation… does anyone really know or has everyone just heard from a friend or saw some TV show about one perticular pet store once a few years ago?? are there any pet store owners here to defend themselves?? I know that you should buy from a breeder. I bought my dog from a breeder. That’s not what I’m asking… Can anyone here put together an unbiased thought or am I barking up the wrong tree? (no pun intended)
If that’s the case you need a better search engine.
Via profusion >
http://compnetworking.about.com/library/tips/blfaq010.htm
Pet Industry Position Re: Pet Retailers selling Puppies
http://www.petswarehouse.com/Puppy-position.htm
correct link to above
Thank you astro. That is exactly what I was looking for.
Well, I have friends who have bought “pure bred” dogs from pet shops and have ended up with disasters but that’s no proof. I have no doubt that many, many wonderful dogs have come from pet shops anyway. It’s just logical to think that a good breeder would never have to resort to selling their animals to some pet shop and wouldn’t do it even if they had a couple of extra dogs to get rid of. They usually have waiting lists and screen the shit out of potential buyers. It can be easier to adopt a human baby.
Is it moral to buy a dog from a pet shop? I would guess not but I really have no idea. Is it smart to buy a dog from a pet shop? No fucking way. You’re asking for problems.
Haj
Okay, what does “serious about dogs” mean? Every dog owner I know is serious simply in the sense that he or she wants to have a pet dog. Why is a plain old vanilla pet store not “serious” enough to meet those needs? I would wager that 99 out of 100 people go to pet stores to get a little pet snoopy for their son or daughter, and 1 out of 100 goes to a breeder for an Iditarod-quality Husky or champion Greyhound. Thus, supply and demand would seem to favor the pet store.
Okay, I’m clearly revealing myself as a non-dog owner because there is obviously something I am missing here. What has intelligence got to do with buying a pet from a pet shop or shelter versus spending hundreds (thousands?) of dollars on a “racially superior” dog? Aren’t dogs supposed to be highly trainable & adaptable?
Heck, even cats (well-known for their independance & resistance to behavior modification) can be brought from a shelter into a home & make the necessary adjustment to become a faithful & friendly family member.
So what is it about spending time in a pet shop that makes a dog unfit to be a decent pet?
That’s one reason pet shop animals (and several ‘reputable’ dealers stock isn’t any good, and not getting any better.
The line can only be inbred so long before problems in the breed start showing up - hip dysplasia is just one example. One breeder I talked to said that here in the US, many of the breeds have been completely trashed by excessive inbreeding. I knew mutts were good dogs, now I know why.
Let’s not debate the ethics of buying from a pet store or denigrate the intelligence of people who do so. Those are topics for other forums. Let’s stick to answering the general question: Do all pet stores get their dogs from puppy mills?
bibliophage
moderator GQ
Without getting into the GD issues surrounding the forced eugenic selection of the specific group of traits that define a “breed” I think the answer is mainly “Yes”. I’m also a non-dog owner but, over the years, having listened to many people describe why they bought their dogs from breeders instead of pet shops the reasons center mainly on the purported genetic superiority of a breeder’s stock vs the less certifiable pet shop animals. Little if anything was said about any differences in the way breeder or pet shop animals were treated while waiting to be purchased. I suspect in their heart of hearts people who buy from breeders want their own little uber-dog and a reputable breeder is probably a surer route to this goal than a pet shop dog.
Yes, at the generally low prices offered at pet stores, it is likely that the dogs were bred with profit as the first priority. That pretty much defines “puppy mill.”
Granted, some puppy mills may be pleasant enough places. Beyond how humanely the animals are treated (food, shelter, water, shade) is the issue of how carefully they are bred (does either parent have health issues that could be passed on to the offspring?), and whether the animals are examined thoroughly before sale. You hear of pet store animals dying prematurely, having epileptic seizures, etc.
Can’t imagine how one breeds other animals humanely. Can one find a lizard breeder in the yellow pages?
Not all people who go to breeders are looking for a “champion.” They are looking for a dog with a good temperament, and a low likelihood of genetic defects.
Example: Dalmatians have gone through 2 great waves of popularity due to the 101 Dalmatians movies. Dalmatians that are not bred carefully have a tendency to be barky, difficult to handle, and they have a strong genetic tendency toward deafness and urinary problems. Reputable Dalmatian breeders screen out dogs with these tendencies. So, let’s say there is a breeder out there who specializes in “dog show” Dals. In a given litter, there may be only a couple who have champion potential. (Dalmatians’ markings are very important in the show ring.) So, the breeder might sell those dogs who might have too many or too few spots or something. But these “pet quality” dogs are far more likely to have the better temperament and to lack the genetic defects than a puppy-mill Dal, who was probably bred without as much attention to these things. (BTW, we are in the aftermath of the wave of overbreeding of Dals, and there are boatloads of deaf ones out there looking for good homes.) So, if you were a Dalmatian enthusiast, you’d be foolish to take the chance on a pet store dog.
Another example: Here in NJ, we are proud to be the home of The Seeing Eye. Labs and Shepherds are bred to be guide dogs. After staying with a foster family for about a year, the pups go into specialized training. Many of the dogs wash out of this training–some of them just can’t resist chasing squirrels. Not such a good thing when the dog has a blind person hanging on to his harness. The Seeing Eye will release these dogs who wash out of the training. These “reject” dogs are very highly sought after as pets, as they are highly intelligent, extremely well-trained, and likely to have no genetic defects. I’d much rather have a Seeing Eye reject than a Shepherd from the mall.
Even for a pet, people want a good quality dog.
If you are looking for an ordinary pet dog, IMHO, it is just plain wrong to buy one from a pet store, when there are so many wonderful dogs (including puppies, purebreds, etc.) waiting at the pound or with rescue organizations. Some places don’t even charge an adoption fee.
p.s. from Spot: Woof woof!!
Incidentally, my Aunt rescued 2 Yorkie breeding bitches from a puppy mill about a year ago. They were going to be destroyed because their breeding days were over. (They’re 6.) Her old dog had recently died, so she took them in.
All I can say is that my Aunt is a wonderful person, because no one who wasn’t in line for sainthood would have taken these two in.
They were/are:
–Not socialized to human interaction at all. Human socialization of puppies is crucial to their development into good pets.
–Not housetrained at all. (In well-socialized dogs, the mother dog will teach the tiny pups not to “poop where you eat.” The pups learn that “bathroom” areas and “living areas” are to be separate. The mother dog eats the newborn’s poop until they are old enough to learn that “the bathroom is over there.” It is much easier to housetrain such a puppy, because he does not want to poop where he lives.) These two dogs could not have begun to train their puppies, because they had no concept of not pooping where they eat.
–Snappish. (fortunately, they are smaller than the average cat.) A temperament problem.
–They spin in circles constantly. We don’t know if this is neurological or just due to anxiety, but it would seem that this indicates a trait that should not be replicated.
They have gotten better over the past year–but they are still pretty awful. But, my aunt loves them very much and takes care of them well. (Her last dog was the most crochety old bitch you ever met. Auntie went to the pound and they fell in love with each other. The dog was elderly already–and had the world’s worst personality. No accounting for taste, I guess!)
So, to answer the OP, I don’t know if there are reputable pet stores out there, but the offspring of these two Yorkies were sold to pet stores.
bibliophage: I realized that my above postings do contain commentary on the ethics of buying from pet stores. I overlooked your comment on that. I apologize. Remove my statement if you wish.
Nope.
The pet store up the street sells dogs and puppies, (And kittens and cats and the occasional ferret) and not one comes from a “puppy mill”. They are really a “broker”. If one of the neighborhood dogs gets “knocked up” the options are sell the litter yourself, drop them off at the Humane Society, or contact the pet store and they’ll let you sell them out of the store with a big sign out front advertising they have puppies in. (With the mix, if they can figure it out.)
There’s a vet clinic in town that has a similar deal going, but you asked about pet stores.
(Most chain stores deal with “puppy mills” -depending on your definition. Also the pups in your average mall pet store don’t get near the socialization they need. And there’s no one evaluating the quality of the pups. Sorry to veer off the OP, but this is a serious “Hot Button” question.)
-Rue.
I got a puppy from a shop and it was very sick. It had fluid around its heart. I returned it and got all my money back without a problem.
Before this I got a puppy whom I could swear came from a puppy mill, she was always so dreadfully afraid of paper and plastic bags. She even had nightmares.
I try and go straight to breeders. Sometimes they will sell out of a shop. I got a great beagle this way. My other dog I got from a shelter and it was 2 months old, he is ten now.
As a former pet store worker, here’s what I know:
The store I worked for was located in a mall, but as far as I could tell, the puppies we received did not come from puppy mills. What we were told concerning this was that our puppies came from one company, but this company visited breeders in the Missouri and surrounding areas and purchased the puppies for resale. All of the breeders were required to be USDA certified, which puppy mills are not. I did look over the paperwork for most of the puppies, and the same company was the point of origin from our store. The original breeders were also listed for future owners to contact if they wished.
Whether this is true or not, I am not sure, but the owner of the store was very much an animal lover, owning several dogs and a few cats himself. The puppies we received were for the most part very healthy and were checked by three different vets before they were ever allowed to be placed for sale to the customers…
Not sure if that helps or not.
There are a lot of variables here. But to phrase the question, “Do pet stores ever buy from breeders?” the answer is a definite no.
Putting all morals & ethics aside it’s simply the wrong distribution channel for that supplier. Breeders generally work out of a kennel on their own property and sell to individuals who either intend on entering the animal in shows or who are simply enthusiastic enough about the breed to be willing to spend more for a pet. Pet shops cater a knotch below these people, but above those who simply want a free mutt.
The question, “Are all puppy mills run badly?” is an entirely different issue.