That does seem to be a heck of a lot of work to slaughter a cow, given that a bolt to the skull is so much more efficient in terms of man-hours and space requirements.
Unless sadnil just believes that the farmers do this only occassionally, perhaps as a treat for their evil farmer children.
Actually, I never said that I think that all cows are treated this way. I said that I read in a PETA pamphlet that cows are ripped from the trailer only to smash on the ground below. I can’t recall if I mentioned it or not, but this is what they do to STUBBORN cows who won’t walk out of the trailer on their own. The fact of the matter is, this DOES happen, regardless of what people think. My question was how often does it occur. Also, if it’s as frequent as I guess it would be in the part of the country that I live in, why wouldn’t I chose to be a vegetarian based only on the cruelty issue. Basically, I’ve decided not to be a vegetarian because of the fact that it’s not much better for the environment to farm vegetables than it is to farm animals. Additionally, people on this board seem to be pretty sure that the cruelty mentioned is not common and that the farmers would rather save the quality of the beef than punch cows in the face (as PETA says is common).
Well, Sadnil, I would venture a guess that it rarely happens, if at all. Growing up, I worked on several ranches, including my fathers, and we slaughtered cattle and chickens both. Later, I worked at a commercial slaughterhouse. On the ranches, typically the rancher doesn’t slaughter his own cattle unless it’s for his personal consumption. Most cattle were sold to a slaughterhouse and they did all the work. And NO, none of them every broke the cows pelvis. If the cow can’t walk onto the trailer, no one would buy it. For a personal supply of meat, we never called the Vet; we shot the cow ourselves, and it was fast and as merciful as possible. One bullet to the head did it every time. No meat damaged that way…DUH. Unless of course you’re into eating brains, which I’m not. No beaks ripped off of chickens; that’s total bullshit. Every rancher I worked for would never be that unnecessarily cruel, and even at the commercial slaughterhouse it would be unnecessary and a waste of time and money to bother to rip off a beak when it’s easier to stretch their neck and chop the head off. Badabing badaboom, the bird’s dead. Cows, stun to the head, the cow’s dead. Rarely was a cow ever stubborn and not getting off the trailer, because the herd instinct is too strong; they just follow each other.
Sorry man, but don’t believe everything you read. Even if that includes not believing me. But if you’re going to believe PETA, who I guarantee has never slaughtered anything but a child’s innocence, you can at least just consider my words for a minute or two before dismissing me. I slaughtered for many years, and I know the true story.
**
Actually, it’s more cruel if you don’t. I’ve worked on a turkey ranch, and I’ve cut and cauterized the beaks of a few thousand turkey chicks. I’ve also seen what birds do to each other in a state of nature… Ain’t pretty…
The pain is gone in seconds. These are very young chicks we’re talking about.
Trinopus
Clarify for me, please…is it your contention that blunting the beaks of poultry is some sort of gratuitous torture done solely for the enjoyment of the sadistic farmer/rancher? Have you ever seen what a flock of chickens or turkeys will do to each other if you leave their primary weaponry unaltered?
SADNIL, you are both ignorant and a hypocrite, an unattractive combination.
Your cite for this is a PETA pamphlet? Isn’t the whole point of this thread to highlight that PETA is more and more apparently a bunch of irrational over-zealous whack-jobs whose devotion to their cause has divorced them from reality? Beyond which – does this even make sense? Here’s a few self-evident factoids for you: (1) Cows are herd creatures and it is not hard to get them into or out of trailers, once the first few are in (or out). They do not like to be left behind. (2) Cows are off-loaded by walking them down ramps. A cow (or horse) who refuses to exit a trailer may be pulled or pushed or otherwise compelled to do so, but it won’t involve smashing it on the ground unless the cow falls off the ramp.
So you’re okay with cruelty to animals, right? You assert that the techniques used to get meat to the table involve cruelty to animals, but you admit that this cruelty is not enough to prevent you from supporting the meat industries. What kind of person does this make you?
What??? Unless a vegetable is consuming something other than air and minerals, and unless it is putting out methane gas instead of CO2 (and a lot of it), it is absolute bullshit to say it is not better for the environment to raise crops than animals. Do you have any idea how much environmental damage industrial animal husbandry does? It is far and away the chief concern of responsible animal farmers and ranchers – how can I dispose of the waste my animals produce without harming the air, earth, and/or groundwater? They wrestle with that every day, and spend a lot of money to figure out how to accomplish it. Plant an acre of potatoes and raise a few cattle on an acre, and then at the end of the year tell me which acre is boasting the better environment. Frankly one of the most persuasive arguments for vegetarianism in the industrialized Western world is the amount of environmental damage large-scale animal farming and ranching almost inevitably does. To say that you are not a vegetarian because you think it’s worse for the environment is to display almost breath-taking ignorance.
Getting back to the point of this thread: I’d be interested to hear if PETA really did this, or if it was all a publicity stunt. I went to the Nutcracker in Phoenix, my cousin’s daughter was in the Nutcracker in Portland (OR), and my friend took her mom to the Nutcracker in Seattle. None of us saw any PETA people at the performances, nor was there any local coverage indicating they had been there. Does anyone know if they really tried this? If so, where? And how’d it go?
Uhmm, Sadnil, that business about cows being yanked from a truck and left to die was debunked inthis thread which you started on December 24th. Now, what with weekends, holidays, etc. things are moving a bit more slowly than usual around here, which is why I thought the post in this thread in which you mentioned it was later than it was, but still, please take some advice from an old veteran. Continuing to state something as fact when it has already been debunked could be taken as promoting ignorance. This board’s purpose is fighting ignorance. That is one way to get marked as the enemy, and, if you want to see an example of the cruelty of man or nature in action, check out a meltdown here in the Pit.
Becoming a vegetarian won’t work for me right now for a variety of reasons. I respect those who are and am even willing to try to cook up a vegetarian recipe or two. Heck, I don’t even eat fried chicken around them because I suspect gleefully eating meat off the bone is a bit too in-your-face. On the other hand, I don’t care for some of the things which have been said about those of us who do enjoy meat in that thread I linked to.
Respectfully,
CJ
Does this really happen “in a state of nature”? Do they cut off beaks of free-range birds?
cowgirl, I was going to make that very point. I lived for awhile on a very small farm; we had a flock of two dozen chickens, and none of them were debeaked, and the worst thing I ever saw was the rooster forcibly mating with the hens.
My understanding is that chickens don’t turn to cannibalism in a “state of nature” rather, they turn to cannibalism in “overcrowded conditions.”
Same with turkeys: the flock of wild turkeys that wandered through my old back yard all had their beaks intact, and none had obvious bleeding beak-wounds.
Thanks, LHoD. That’s what I suspected.
From Jodi
You folks should lighten up! Geez. Bunch of freagin’ name callers, here. I’ve never said (NEVER!) that I am a member of PETA or that I agree or believe in a thing that they have said. All I said was this is the info that was given to me, I understand it’s not the most reliable source, and how reliable is this information. I never said that I hate farmers or that every farmer is a bad guy. I said that it seems cruel to me to cut the beaks off of chicks. It is NOT under dispute weather or not chicks feel pain or for how long. None of us know because we are people not baby chickens. Also, many of the posters here have said that they have worked on farms and such. Well, I’m sure the five or so people who attest to the happy conditions at the farms they worked at are representative of the majority of farms across the country. Honestly, I don’t think it’s a fair sampling and a bunch of geeks like us on message boards are not really representative of anything other than geekie folks on message boards. Quit with the insults. I’m not a hypocrite. I eat meat and I like it and I don’t feel too bad about doing it. Ignorant, is a relative term, frankly. Ask someone from southeastern Ohio between Columbus and Wheeling what he or she thinks about biracial children and you’ll discover what ignorance really is.
From Siege
The other thread I started on 12/24 did not quite debunk the idea that cows are yanked out and left to die. It was generally agreed upon that this is not routine practice. However, it is not an urban legend. I’m quite sure it has happened (no I haven’t time to look up sources so slam my claim if you will). When it comes down to it, I’m pretty satisfied with the responses to my original query and we can move on. Oh, and for those of you who continue to slander people or really post anything here at all, try and read as many of the previous posts as possible. Most of all, read the first post of the thread.
Debeaking is a requirement only if you’re going to stuff them into a concentrated animal feeding operation (CAFO). CAFOs are also responsible for considerable air and groundwater pollution and spread illness more readily, forcing the use of large amounts of antibiotics, with the problems that causes.
I don’t agree with PETA on a lot of issues, but I do think CAFOs are against our better interest, and not merely for reasons related to the ethical treatment of animals.
CAFOs are like Wal-Mart: anything that results in lower prices must be good, right?
I have a friend with a small flock of chickens. She tried to introduce a new and somewhat different looking hen into the group. BTW, the flock was made up of different “breeds” of egg layers so I’m not sure what they found so repulsive about the new recruit, but anyway - the group promptly tried to peck the new hen to death, and she had to be removed. These chickens are not living in overcrowded conditions (they were only penned at night) so it’s not safe to say that it only happens on commercial farms. I don’t think it’s that they are “turning to cannabalism” as you say. The ones I observed weren’t trying to eat the new hen. They were just trying to kill her.
Kiger, lots of species try to kill interlopers. Not really all that surprising, when you think about it. Xenophobia seems to be a natural condition.
what’s funny about the turn this conversation has taken is that we meat-eating folk tend to say things such as “Nature makes us kill things. Look at lions, tigers and bears!” and then people say things like, “We take off their beaks to save them from themselves.” we shouldn’t really argue nature makes us kill and then say we remove beaks because nature makes them kill eachother. ya know? if meat eaters take the “It’s only natural,” course, we can’t argue for performing a non-natural act such as debeaking and say it’s so that nature doesn’t have them kill eachother.
Well if Bush gets the civilization he wants it will be kill before you get killed.
So you better sharpen your razor me boyo.
Well, thanks for at least acknowledging that I said something. Too bad you think it’s worthless and you’d rather believe PETA, (who has never slaughtered) than someone that admittedly has slaughtered for many years. THAT, sir, is ignorance. No one said anything about “happy conditions” at the farms, and you can keep your condescending sarcasm to yourself please. The farms were not happy. (It was hard to look at an animal and know that in a short time it was going to be dead. When it started to not be difficult for me, I knew it was time to quit.) The only thing I said was, the farmer typically does not slaughter his own livestock; he sells them to beef and poultry suppliers and THEY slaughter them. And he can’t sell them if they can’t walk, and he will NOT go out of his way to inflict pain upon his animals. If for no other reason than it makes his job that much harder. Ranching (REAL ranching, not “hobby ranching”) is a bitch. If you don’t believe it, try it sometime. 7 days a week, 12 hour days, and you’re on call all the fuckin time. You don’t want to do anything that makes your job any harder than it already is. If you don’t want to take my word for it, that’s more or less what I already expected by the tone of your posts, so frankly I don’t give a shit what you think. But I think you’re foolish to dismiss the testimony of former ranchers and slaughterhouse workers (REGARDLESS of whether or not they are a fair example of the beef industry) but still believe the flyers of a group like PETA that have NO experience and couldn’t find their ass with both hands.
Have fun with your fantasy. Doesn’t sound like a fun one to me though.
from Thumperdud
from Sadnil quoted by Thumperdud
Okay, it can be said that illiteracy is a leading cause of ignorance (which is not a term, IMHO many people understand fully). If you would have been capable of reading the many posts of mine, including the one you quoted, you would have found that I said that I do not “believe” everything PETA says. Also, I do not find it a very reliable source on just about anything. Please, from now on, read the post you quote before slandering the poster. Oh, and don’t talk trash anyway. That’s not good for the soul. Like I’ve said, I agree that many of you worked on or know someone who worked on rather humane farms and in happy slaughterhouses. That’s great!
Likewise. Read my fuckin post before you reply, asswipe. Either show me the post where I said the ranches were happy, or stop putting words in my mouth.
SADNIL, you are not making sense.
You cite the arguments of PETA, but then say you don’t believe them and “do not find it a very reliable source on just about anything.”
You claim that PETA is correct about cruelty to animals in the meat (and, one assumes, dairy and fur) industries, but then you say you still eat meat. (Meaning that either you don’t believe these arguments yourself, or you are strangely unmoved by the thought that animals are routinely tortured to provide you with food.)
You appear to agree with PETA that using animals for food is also ecologically irresponsible, but then you claim (entirely without basis) that raising crops or vegetables is worse.
Pick a position and stick with it. And on this message board, be prepared to defend it. If you are unwilling or unable to defend it, then don’t post it. If you are putting forward an argument you neither believe yourself nor are willing or able to defend, be prepared to eat that argument (be it meat or veg), because it will be crammed back down your throat. And if you’re disturbed by trash talk and insults (as you reasonably might be), then stay out of the Pit.