Its not a non-consensual kiss. Shes incapable of giving consent. She is for all purposes dead. AGAIN…do people complain at funerals that someone kissed the corpse?
If anything the complaint should be the Prince is kissing a corpse, Conflating a fairy tale kiss of a loved one in a moment of grief with something like what Adrian Brody did or that Spanish coach is ridiculous. It actually cheapens real life examples.
Also also…“Think of the children!”
Also also also: Its a good $#&&ing thing he DID kiss her. For her sake and the entire kingdom.
Switching to Sleeping Beauty: “You must now kiss Aurora to waken her and the entire kingdom!”
Philip: “Whoa whoa whoa!! I draw the line at non-consensual kissing”
Again, not a 'non-consensual kiss". It was saying goodbye to a loved one. Trust me, my dead Grandmother did not give consent, but most of us kissed her dead face anyway. It is a common cultural thing.
Are you saying that that culture is wrong and your culture is right?
Right.
Those people calling it a non consensual kiss are disrespecting other peoples cultures.
So, you are calling my peoples culture and that culture and many other peoples culture “creepy”? Look, you may tsay kissing a dead loved one goodbye is something your culture doesnt do. Fine. But in other people’s cultures it is common and expected.
Many cultures have traditions related to the dead that are different than others. In some bodies are floated down the river. In others they are laid out on top of platforms, or cremated, or buried until only the bones are left , and then the bones are put in an ossuary. To me, none of those are creepy, just because we dont do things that way.
Yeah, I agree there’s a lot of going in circles…(No sarcasm)
I’ll end my input with the following: IMHO, its not a ‘non-consensual kiss’ because a non-consensual kiss means 'you didn’t get consent." But there has to be the potential for consent. Shooting a corpse isn’t murder and kissing a corpse isnt a non consensual kiss*
HE thinks she’s dead. From his POV there is no moral failing. Theres no bad lesson about consent to be taught in Snow White other then maybe the argument about stalking. I’d have to see it again.
The true love kiss was right for the market demand of the time of the Disney movie, which why it was changed to that from the apple dislodging when the glass casket got jostled.
It isn’t right for the market demand of this time. The whole fairy tale one true love trope, the singular love you are fated for, is not the romantic story that appeals today.
The princess being rescued by a group of brave males, short or otherwise, that she has won over by being pretty, cooking and cleaning for, and singing to, and by a prince, and not saved by her own agency or growth (or possibly the power of family or friendship or sisterhood) is also not right for today’s market.
The property has to be adapted to the current times. That should be obvious.
If the stories told are only ever the former and never the latter, or vice versa, then we will live in a tedious world of paint-by-numbers movies, where you can take a fair guess at how the story with progress based purely on whether the main character is female or not.
There is nothing inherently wrong or disparaging about depicting a caring, loving woman carrying out such duties as Snow White does, looking after people and being lauded for it.
Equally there is nothing wrong with Ellen Ripley being the toughest of the tough and being one of the greatest action heroes due to her bravery and resourcefulness.
Snow white could cook, clean, sing, take care of the dwarfs, wish for true love and still be someone who is tough and resourceful.
I don’t think it is obvious at all. And certainly it is not necessary to adapt to the extent that the rumours suggest.
No reason why it couldn’t be a success as a pretty straight remake of the original. Indeed, it’d be far more interesting to see that done.
The changes allegedly made in the new one are predictable and you can guess ahead of time how they’ll portray Snow White, in fact I think you pretty much nailed it in your paragraph above.
“Calling it murder is cultural insensitivity. It’s just their way to rip still-beating hearts out”
“Calling it child rape is cultural insensitivity. Having child brides is just their tradition”
“Calling it mutilation is cultural insensitivity. Hacking off clitorises with rusty razor blades is a folkway we must respect”
… ad infinitum
Yes, it’s creepy. “But my culture…” is never a Get Out Of Jail Free card to all criticism.
“But my culture” is a reasonable defense of differences in manners and cultural norms, as opposed to morals. The things you mention are moral offenses and demonstrably harm people. What kind of treatment of dead bodies is acceptable and respectful vs. creepy is cultural.
All those examples you give are of serious, material, physical harm being inflicted on an innocent person.
They do not compare well to the (fairly widespread) example of kissing a corpse. A corpse that presumably was comfortable with the practice having been immersed in said culture.
I can’t speak for DrDeth but certainly I’d say that we have no business interfering or judging aspects of other cultures that cause no harm.
The “creepiness” is merely your subjective feeling and as such only gets given as much weight as the feelings of those who see it as perfectly fine.
You are right though, appealing to culture is not a “get out of jail free card” but I don’t think DrDeth was playing that card in that way, I could be wrong. They seemed to be speaking specifically about this practice.
I’m freaked out by the thought of having open caskets or even seeing the dead body of a loved one , that’s my own subjective feeling though and not the problem of the culture that carries it out.
People who do the market research, and those of us who spend lots of time with children and their parents, are pretty sure that you are wrong, at least for definitions of “success” and “interesting” that include making multiple hundreds of millions or a billion plus in box office and merchandising revenues on top.
In general big budget movies are formulaic. The money people have some evidence that the formula works and that which is new and untested is, by definition, a bigger risk. Kids big budget is an extreme case of this, both because the old trope is new if it is the first time you’ve seen it, and those kids who know the formula are enjoying that they can guess how it plays out. They watch over and over again.
A remake of the rescued damsel in distress formula that worked back in history but that is very different than the formula that has been successfully used in female led kid movies of today might be “interesting” to a few. Who knows? The retro nostalgic anti-wokeness of it *might *bring on big bucks! But those with the money are not going to make that bet and neither would I.
“Oh, but he thought she was dead” isn’t really a defence here, either, any more than “But I thought she was saying No as a roleplay thing” or “she was into me before she passed out drunk” or any of the other excuses men make for consent violations.
Yes, that’s exactly the rhetorical device I used. Well-spotted. I reserve absurdism for reacting to absurd arguments.
Except Snow White is not a corpse. Also, I don’t think “Doc” is a licenced ME.
BUT
The actual creepiness is that the people kissing a corpse at a funeral generally are very close relatives of said corpse. I know this, I’ve done it myself, to a mother, a grandmother, a close cousin. It’s part of my culture.
But I definitely wouldn’t do it to, say, my high school crush. That would be … creepy.
“Never” is all-inclusive, it covers this case as well.
I’m not. I’m quite used to it. My brother and sister lay down next to my dead mother in her deathbed for 30 minutes, for instance.
It’s not the mere act of kissing a dead body that’s the creepy thing here. It’s the stranger kissing the not-actually-dead only-just-teen girl he has no actual relationship with. And yes, that means “True Love” as represented in this fairy tale is a creepy concept in itself.
Especially when applied to fully adult men and 14 year old girls.
Yeah, “You’re being a bad cultural relativist!” isn’t exactly a slam-dunk argument. Folks like me who find the kiss creepy and who think it teaches bad lessons to both boys and girls–those thoughts are inextricably linked with our culture, one in which consent is an important value. If you’re a good cultural relativist, you’re not in a position to criticize our criticisms.
Fortunately, I’m not a cultural relativist, and I never started applying that critical lens to this conversation.
That’s not in disagreement with what I said. Maybe reread my post…I don’t think there’s anything objectively creepy about kissing dead bodies, or I wouldn’t have done it myself.
Adult strangers kissing barely-acquainted barely-teen girls’ supposed corpses full on the lips, on the other hand…
We had a recent thread about “theory of mind”: “understanding other people do not have the same knowledge you do,” which is something that small children sometimes do not get. I wonder if that’s relevant here.
We, the viewers, know that Snow White is not dead, but none of the characters in the movie knows this. (As far as I can remember. I might be wrong about either or both of these claims; or Snow White might actually be dead, and the kiss resurrects her—it’s been a long time since I’ve seen the film.)