Pit Bulls (continued)

The BBQ Pit
1201

Oh really. 60 years ago was, at the time of this writing, 1956. Although I don’t expect it will do any good to engage you, other readers may be interested in the extensive pre-1956 American love affair with the popular pit bull:

The United Kennel Club was founded in 1898 specifically to promote pit bull dogs.

The pit bull terrier was used as a symbol of American strength and pride in a World War I poster because the dog was widely recognized and admired by Americans. The heart of the message was that America was ready but would not pick a fight – and the pit bull was chosen to send that message. A message echoed in other posters, also featuring the pit bull.

In the 1930s Our Gang comedies, Pete the Pup was an American Pit Bull Terrier (the part was played by more than one dog). Here pit bulls was chosen for their long association with children.

In 1936, the American Kennel Club finally bowed to popular pressure and began admitting pit bulls, although they changed the name to Staffordshire (later American Staffordshire) Terrier.

Uh…there’s a two-thousand-year history of bulldog-type dogs being used on farms as working dogs (in addition to the unsavory history of bull-baiting).

Your rural relatives and acquaintances really thought of bulldogs as useless?

You know who really kills livestock, don’t you? In numbers rising into the billions, absolutely eclipsing any numbers you can quote for dogs? Hint: they’re allowed in McDonald’s without Service Animal vests.

1202

“Usual” perhaps in a “usual” environment and upbringing but he was a rescue dog, apparently unstable with bouts of severe aggression for no reason and I was a child only somewhat aware that he had issues but after I was attacked he got put down but was previously known to be like that and like any breed of dog raised improperly or wild, they can be dangerous. People are like that too, actually every animal regardless of how people perceive them can be vicious if not deadly depending on the environment of how they were raised to even the family raising them.
Raise your kid in the ghetto and you might encounter some issues as apposed to raising them in Beverly hills. Same applies if they are raised by bad parents, likewise dog owners.

1203

I’d say we have a pattern developing:

“All pit bulls are dangerous!”

“All beagles are safe!”

“All bulldogs are useless!”

1204

Which is why I never recommend families with children or first time dog owners get one from a shelter or rescue.

1205

The facts are very clear. People just haven’t fully accepted that there is a terrible human cost to having dogs living with us, especially those who sometimes kill us.

Dog apologists are fond of saying that if a dog misbehaves, it is the owner’s or trainer’s fault. Yes, that is true, to a point, and when a dog misbehaves, the owner should bear the full responsibility as if he or she had committed the bad behavior themselves.

And, even when a dog is fully domesticated, gentle, non-aggressive and well used to being around people and children, sometimes they just suddenly snap and revert to some primitive instinct. It happened to me when I was around 10. A neighbor farmer had a fine shepherd mix female dog that had the run of his farm, three kids, and never had even a nip from her. One day, my stepfather and I were standing about 8 feet across from the farmer and his son, talking some sort of neighborhood news or trying to work out the loan of some equipment…the son and I were quiet, listening to the adult’s talk, when, with no provocation or warning, the bitch leaped up, lunged at me and bit my upper thigh, just missing my genitals. Broke the skin, needed a few weeks to stop hurting. They kept her in a stall for a few days to watch for any signs of rabies, but she was fine, and, so far as we know, never attacked anyone ever again.

So, you know, been there, done that. We owned a dozen hounds at the time, hunted fox and raccoon, rabbits, squirrels, etc. I’m not a crazy ban all guns liberal. None of those dogs we owned ever even nipped a human, and if they chased a chicken, they were smacked first time, then over the hill with the .22 the second.

No one I knew, 60 years ago, as a kid, ever heard of ‘pit bulls’. Probably thought of them as a useless bulldog or something. We did have terriers and other sorts of breeds, but never had a dog who wasn’t already sick to death snap at them.

The fact is, ‘pit bulls’ have mushroomed into a major problem for the pet-loving industry. They proliferate and fill the shelters. They are often poorly domesticated and every time one harms a human, the reputation of the ‘breed’ is diminished.

The fact is, again, that we would be better off eliminating that strain of dog before it becomes impossible for anyone to legally own a pooch. That day will come if dogs keep attacking humans and livestock around the world.
I stand by every word of this, no matter how stupid Skywalker or any other poster here becomes. Why would I lie about something like this? I never knew of anyone in rural Illinois of my area who kept or used a ‘pit bull’ for anything. We were all to smart to have them around.

You lot keep proclaiming that the facts about pit bulls are all ‘made up’ or ‘mistaken’ …but they aren’t. Why don’t you go interview emergency room doctors and make your own statistics? They’ll all tell you about the steady stream of pit bull (and other big dog) bites they have to treat. Why the hell do we need dogs of that sort in this day? Get a beagle.

1206

Yeah, you’re still a rabidly ignorant idiot who believes all pit bulls are dangerous, all beagles are safe, and all bulldogs are useless.

1207

You still fail to grasp my point.

Only a few percent of pit bulls are dangerous. Relatively speaking, pit bull attacks are rare. That doesn’t mean that we can blithely ignore the fact that those attacks do happen, that people, often kids, are killed or maimed for life. Because these events happen, by generally accepted police reports, far more often with pit bulls than with other breeds, it makes sense to get pit bulls out of our social equation. We don’t need them around when we have so many safer choices available. it is the 10% of the effort that produces the 90% of positive result thing.

Beagles don’t attack people unless they smell like a rabbit or fox or, possibly, a skunk. When beagles attack, people don’t die. They get smacked and they stop attacking, whimper, and never repeat that mistake.

Bulldogs are just plain ugly and should be kept away from people with delicate constitutions who might faint or throw up when they look at the disaster men’s breeding to a type has created.

I may be, to you, a rabidly ignorant idiot, but you must understand that my opinion of your ability to use your mind to make intelligent decisions is extremely low, as well.

1208

and, I will add, just so my position is clear…any dog that behaves aggressively toward any human should be euthanized. I don’t buy this business about dogs being provoked into an attack. Many dogs will be submissive, will avoid confrontation…those who don’t are potential killers. Why have them around?

Dogs running in packs should be trapped and euthanized.
Dogs who attack smaller animals? Reeducate.
dogs who attack livestock. Kill without prejudice.

The process of canine domestication that began 15000 years or so ago is ongoing. There is no need for humans to have dangerous animals around us.

1209

No, I’m deliberately ignoring your “point” because, as demonstrated in post 1201, it’s grounded in ignorance and stupidity.

1210

Any dog has the ability to be dangerous. 15 years ago, the dangerous canine was Rottweilers. Within 2 years, there was a sweeping change to “pit-bull type” dogs. Did a switch suddenly flip in 2002?

I doubt anyone feels aggressive animals should be allowed to just wander freely. Unfortunately, as a society, pets - unlike work dogs - are viewed as part of the family, and thus taking them out behind the shed is a much more difficult proposal. Without a massive public education initiative, people that are incapable of handling large, stubborn, or otherwise “high-risk” animals will still believe themselves up to the challenge. It hurts my heart to think of all the large dogs that have come into the shelters I’ve worked at because “they were so cute as a puppy”, “we didn’t know how big he would get”, “she doesn’t listen to us”, and so on. I’ve seen far too many dogs suffer due to their owners being unable or unwilling to put in the work required to have a well-mannered pet. The resulting situation sucks for everyone, even the vast majority that don’t end with any injuries. IMHO, pairing a novice dog owner with a pit bull, mastiff, German shepherd, rottweiler, or any related breed/mix is equivalent to putting a Uzi near a 9 year old. Most of the time, nothing happens, because the kid doesn’t pick it up or fire it. Sometimes, you get shot in the fucking head.

1211

No, it’s grounded purely in common sense. There is absolutely no reason to have a pit bull. The dog in the Little Rascals is a completely different animal today.
People aren’t breeding them near as much as family dogs now as they are for fighting. If you pick one up at the shelter, you run a very high risk of having a dog bred for gameness than a docile, family-oriented background.

I can’t believe how shit-hammeringly stupid most pro-pit people are who value their own egos for owning a powerful, extremely unpredictable breed over basic human decency & consideration.

1212

Wrong.

See, here’s one example of ignorance and stupidity: dogs identified as a “pit bull” are often (usually?) something else entirely. Including in shelters. Which typically euthanize problem dogs before they’re adopted out.

And there’s another: dogs do not simply snap and attack with no warning. Many idiots don’t know a warning when they see one.

1213

And a third: fighting dogs are typically only dangerous to other dogs, not people. What fight handler wants to be attacked when handling his property?

1214

Mixed breed dogs in the great majority of cases. Therefore characterizing the behavior of dogs called ‘pit bulls’ is judging simply by appearance and this is nonsensical. Not because it’s ‘unfair’, but because it’s scientifically baseless. So the anti ‘pit bull’ position is basically irrelevant to the practical issue.

What are the characteristics of actual APBT’s?, how consistent among members of the breed? etc would be a potentially reasonable argument like that for any other actual breed. Although, there’s still no actual scientific evidence that any real breed is more inherently prone to aggression to humans than another, if managed the same way by humans. But the public policy discussion of ‘pit bulls’ is based on any dog of a certain general appearance. The pro-BSL position is indeed ignorant, and shows stupidity if people persist in such ignorance after good faith attempts to educate them.

The ‘pit bull’ scare is pretty transparently a social phenomenon based on race/class of the people viewed as typical owners of ‘pit bulls’. It’s about the furthest thing from ‘common sense’.

1215

As demonstrated by the namesake of a play about witch hunting for at least two threads now.

1216

This statement leads me to believe you have never actually owned a dog. A single correction and they never repeat? Dogs will require many corrections in order to learn. the corrections should not include hitting.

My wife just got two dogs from the county shelter. A petite female pit bull and male lab\pit mix, both about a year and half old. Both are very affectionate animals. However, it is clear from their behaviors that both were abused as puppies. The female has a habit of peeing on the carpet. When when we try to correct her (without hitting, of course) she reacts in terror. She cowers as if expecting pain.

The dog has to have a licence. The owners do not. I think it should be the other way around. Some people should never be allowed to own a dog.

1217

I can’t believe how shit-hammeringly stupid the general public is about all dogs. For one thing, whatever the shelter tells you a dog’s breed or mix is, most of the time they are going to be wrong. Many times on purpose, because purebreds are more likely to be adopted and people want to know what to call their mix other than “mutt”. So if you are going to get a pet at the pound, ignore what “breed” they call it unless it’s completely obvious.

Next, it is up to you to have a clue about what type of dog fits best with your family and it is your responsibility to get that type of dog. Not just drop into a shelter and assume everything in there is going to be that perfect family pet. There are reasons why dogs end up there, and most of them have to do with having been bred and/or raised by irresponsible people. You know how likely it is you are going to find a “docile” well mannered pet there, among all of the half grown completely untrained and unaltered teenage dumpees?

Ending up with that ideal family pet is work. You don’t just go pick out a dog at your local pound and expect it to transform into a no problem addition to the family without an input from you. Blaming the dogs for what the humans have been doing to them is, well, shit-hammeringly stupid not to mention not helping.

1218

Oh, my, I am so humiliated!
Let’s just leave it that you like big ugly aggressive dogs that sometimes kill or maim people, and I don’t.

Anyone who has seen the pictures of kids with faces ripped off (I won’t even suggest you try to view the ones where they have been ripped apart) and who can then say we should simply blame owners for that madness, and not the dog? Please Skywatcher, tell us you are arguing ad absurdum?

1219

It is your job to control your dogs, not mine to be educated on exactly how to react around them. If they can’t be trusted not to bite then they should be muzzled whenever they are in contact with the public.

In fact, If it were up to me I’d require, chipping of all dogs, compulsory insurance and muzzling when off private property. Surely none of that is controversial?

1220

[QUOTE=crucible]

Let’s just leave it that you like big ugly aggressive dogs that sometimes kill or maim people, and I don’t.
[/QUOTE]
Really?