I feel like Liberal isn’t trolling or joking, but that we’re in the midst of a long performance piece. I get the feeling that he’s lost control of the situation and doesn’t know how or when to jump out and yell “Psych!”. It’s a good performance, and I appreciate it, but it’s not as nuanced as a true Obama supporter would be.
He probably feels like Andy Kaufman wondering when the hell people are going to get it. On the other hand, Kaufman never yelled “Psych!”, so maybe Liberal won’t either. It’s a better piece if he doesn’t, but I wonder if he’ll be happy not having us know he put one over on us.
Nope. **Lib ** is one hunnerd percent straight on this. And its not so much that I have complete faith in his honesty, but that I have greater faith in his self-esteem: there’s no way on God’s green he would pretend to be me.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Nope. **Lib ** is one hunnerd percent straight on this.
[/QUOTE]
Thanks. As I’ve said before several times, Obama’s economic leanings are Chicagoan (the school, not the city), which is nearly Austrian, which is decidedly libertarian. He favors free trade and civil liberties. He is an inspirational leader at a time when America needs more than anything an inspirational leader. As many times as I’ve explained all this and more, it just bugs me when people sniff around my ass trying to figure out what I’m up to. At this point, all I have to say is fuck 'em.
Genius is pain, Lib.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Thanks. As I’ve said before several times, Obama’s economic leanings are Chicagoan (the school, not the city), which is nearly Austrian, which is decidedly libertarian.
[/quote]
Er, you should probably reconsider this line of thinking, Lib.
Obama has lots of advisors from the U of Chicago, but they’re not of the Milton Friedman/Gary Becker variety. And those two economists, while libertarian, are not especially Austrian.
I agree though that Obama has centrist instincts and is a terrific orator. I predict that those on the extreme left will be in for a let-down if Obama is elected: I’ll merely sigh when he expands health care coverage without quite delivering universal care.
[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]
…I predict that those on the extreme left will be in for a let-down if Obama is elected:…
[/QUOTE]
Speaking from the conservative wing of the extreme left, thanks, but we know that already. Many of us can tie our own shoes, make oatmeal, and read newspapers. I know that Obama is only a hair’s-breadth to the left of Hillary, and Hillary is a DNC triangulated “centrist”.
I’ve had unpopular views most of my life, and I’m not so stupid as to believe that Americans, en masse, will suddenly adopt my world-view. Progressives vote for progress, and we take what we can get. Always some, usually not much, never enough.
And then there’s the sheer practicality to consider: these clowns have totally fucked things up, and in ways we don’t even know about yet! We have to pry thier greasy fingers off our necks, and then assess the situation. We know its bad, we don’t know how bad. We have to pull the truck out of the ditch before we can even start to think about switching out engines.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
The boy finally climbed down off the fence and got himself some politics, rather than the abstract contempt for all spectra of same. Can’t really say whether this is a good thing or no. Gotta say I’m a bit surprised, if you had said “**Lib’**s climbing down on the _______ side”, without filling in the blank, I would have guessed he would have jumped down on the conservative side.
[/QUOTE]
It’s Obama driven. What side do you think he would have come down on, if any, if Hillary had been the nominee? My wild guess is that it would not be the Democratic side.
[QUOTE=levdrakon]
Here I thought Liberal was getting pitting for this trolling gem. It would make me sick to quote it, so I’ll paraphrase:
Hey fellow Obamalurvers, let’s debate Omaba. Topic for debate: Is he the most wonder man on earth? Is he the most wonderful man in the galaxy? Is he the most perfect man in the universe? How superior to God is he already? Let’s debate!
How many of these threads is he going to be allowed to start, in Great Debates of all places?
[/QUOTE]
Thank you; I thought I was the only one who felt that way.
I think he has earned the right to speak his mind. I don’t think that he earned the right to try to subvert the American election process. But what you said can be looked at in another way if you are fair:
What, specifically, did John Kerry say that bristles you so? Did he lie about something? Or do you just think that a swiftboat Captain that was wounded and had to hear lies spewed about his service ahd have these lies used against him during his presidential campaign hasn’t really earned the right to speak his mind? But please, YOU go right ahead.
Everyone should have the right to speak her or his mind, but not to tell deliberate lies.
No. Calling someone unpatriotic just because he is against a war is not “distasteful.” It is “distasteful” to blow your nose at a meal. It is “distasteful” to belch during a wedding ceremony. Calling someone “unpatriotic” because his political views differ from yours own is an anathema to the spirit of the Constitution.
Calling someone “mean” or “senile” may or may not be accurate, rude or entirely appropriate.
Oh wow. Pistol whipped with words. What does that tell you about them?
That one has to be engraved on a bracelet, tattooed on my wrist…I’m not sure exactly what, but it will save a lot of explaining on my part.
[QUOTE=Harborwolf]
Indeed. Obama is apparently the savior of our nation (if not the world/universe/multiverse)and McCain is a doddering old sociopath staggering out in front of the Barrack Express waving his walker angrily in a futile attempt to delay the birth of a grand new age.
Silly me. I thought it was just another presidential election.
[/QUOTE]
The imagery is sublime…McCain…walker…angrly waving it at Obama…
[QUOTE=Liberal]
Yeah, they sure were — perjury, murder, insurrection, and treason:
The major issue in the Swiftboat stories is, and always has been, what John Kerry did in 1971 after he returned from Vietnam. Kerry cast a long dark shadow over all Vietnam Veterans with his outright perjury before the Senate concerning atrocities in Vietnam. His stories to the Senate committee were absolute lies..fabrications..perjury..fantasies, with NO substance. That dark shadow has defamed the entire Vietnam War veteran population, and gave “Aid and Comfort” to our enemies..the Vietnamese Communists. Kerry’s stories were outright fabrications, and were intended for political gain with the radical left..McGovern, Teddy and Bobby Kennedy followers, Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, and the radical left who fantasized that George McGovern was going to be elected in 1972. Little wonder that returning soldiers from Vietnam were spit upon and castigated as “baby killers”.
[…snip…]
While the Commies were hanging on, innumerable U.S. Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Air Force members were being killed in combat. Every battle wound to Americans after Kerry’s misdirected testimony is related to Kerry’s untruthfulness. John Kerry contributed to every one of these deaths with his lies about U.S. atrocities in Vietnam. He likewise defamed the U.S. with our allies and supporters. His conduct also extended the imprisonment of the Vietnam Prisoners of War, of which I was one. I am certain of at least one POW death after his testimony, which might have been prevented with an earlier release of the POWs.
[…snip…]
I draw a direct comparison of General Benedict Arnold of the Revolutionary War, to Lieutenant John Kerry. Both went off to war, fought, and then turned against their country. General Arnold crossed over to the British for money and position. John Kerry crossed over to the Vietnamese with his assistance to the anti-war movement, and his direct liaison with the Vietnamese diplomats in Paris. His reward. Political gain. Senator..United States.
Letter from Bud Day to Joe Scarborough, 4 Oct, 2004
If you don’t think there’s anything wrong or mean about leveling those unsupported charges against a fellow combat veteran, then you’re an idiot.
[/QUOTE]
Dude, when you’re in a combat zone and share the kind of intimacy of near death experiences that they and I have, it just isn’t anything you really talk about.
Ever.
If there were atrocities being committed in Kerry’s presence (and I’m sure there were) during Vietnam, then…if you’re a fucking officer with any merit or balls then you fucking put a stop to that shit with a quickness!
The fact that Kerry tossed his Purple Hearts, then reclaimed them for political reasons, and had the gall to try to put himself out there as a duck-hunting, wind-surfing, football-tossing everyman was disconcerting to me as nothing more than a political gesture for television.
The fact that both sides engaged in character defamation is irrelevant.
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
…If there were atrocities being committed in Kerry’s presence (and I’m sure there were) during Vietnam, then…if you’re a fucking officer with any merit or balls then you fucking put a stop to that shit with a quickness!..
[/QUOTE]
Memory fades, but I’m pretty sure Kerry did not claim to have witnessed atrocities. He was reporting on what he had been told by soldiers and Marines at the Winter Soldier thing.
As for your perfectly reasonable expectations of an officers behavior, you would be interested in Hugh Thompson. Thompson arrived on the scene of My Lai in a helicopter, and threatened to open fire on rampaging soldiers if they didn’t stop. You or I might expect much applause and approval for such courage. You or I would be wrong.
And so it goes.
(citation: Wikepedia)
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Speaking from the conservative wing of the extreme left, thanks, but we know that already. Many of us can tie our own shoes, make oatmeal, and read newspapers. I know that Obama is only a hair’s-breadth to the left of Hillary, and Hillary is a DNC triangulated “centrist”.
I’ve had unpopular views most of my life, and I’m not so stupid as to believe that Americans, en masse, will suddenly adopt my world-view. Progressives vote for progress, and we take what we can get. Always some, usually not much, never enough.
[/QUOTE]
Subtract Iraq, and Obama is positioned to Hillary’s right, I’d say.
Other than that, I agree. But then again, I’m a centrist by European standards, which puts me on the far left fringe of the US spectrum. Transport me and luc to Europe and we’d be at opposite ends. Here in America, we’re fellow travelers.
[QUOTE=Zoe]
I think he has earned the right to speak his mind. I don’t think that he earned the right to try to subvert the American election process.
[/QUOTE]
If the truth changes the outcome of election, that’s a GOOD thing, isn’t it? If you can offer where Day lied, cough it up.
[QUOTE=Zoe]
But what you said can be looked at in another way if you are fair:
What, specifically, did John Kerry say that bristles you so?
[/QUOTE]
The lies he told to the senate. At best, they were rumors. You do not malign fellow military with lies or rumors. Kinda basic stuff, I’d say.
[QUOTE=Zoe]
Did he lie about something? Or do you just think that a swiftboat Captain that was wounded and had to hear lies spewed about his service ahd have these lies used against him during his presidential campaign hasn’t really earned the right to speak his mind? But please, YOU go right ahead.
Everyone should have the right to speak her or his mind, but not to tell deliberate lies.
[/QUOTE]
Like trying to bolster his image by claiming he was in Cambodia when he wasn’t? I agree. And beyond outright lies, I think the truth is that Kerry gamed the system with his “three wounds”. All he wanted from the military his what could add to a resume. He was trying to emulate what JFK had accomplished and sought as much of the same route as he could. But then he realized that war actually sucks and got himself out of their toot suite.
And THEN, after he made what was a principled stance and threw his medals over the war, he sought to capitalize on those very awards 30+ years later. Fuck him. But justice was served. He came on stage “reporting for duty” and the American people told him to shut the fuck up and go home.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
If you don’t think there’s anything wrong or mean about leveling those unsupported charges against a fellow combat veteran, then you’re an idiot.
[/QUOTE]
Are you talking about Bud Day’s letter? Or Kerry’s testimony?
[QUOTE=FoieGrasIsEvil]
Dude, when you’re in a combat zone and share the kind of intimacy of near death experiences that they and I have, it just isn’t anything you really talk about.
[/quote]
Ostensibly, the whole purpose of your combat was to defend the right of people to talk about whatever they want.
You probably should read his testimony before you condemn it; otherwise, you just end up talking about made up stuff.
Would it be better if he had donned them in political ads to accuse a soldier he didn’t know of perjury and treason?
[QUOTE=magellan01]
Are you talking about Bud Day’s letter? Or Kerry’s testimony?
[/QUOTE]
That’s a dumb fucking question, since Kerry didn’t accuse anybody of perjury, murder, insurrection, or treason. He pinned responsibility for all the atrocities in Vietnam squarely where it belonged, on a government engaged in conscription for a political cause.
[QUOTE=elucidator]
Speaking from the conservative wing of the extreme left, thanks, but we know that already. Many of us can tie our own shoes, make oatmeal, and read newspapers. I know that Obama is only a hair’s-breadth to the left of Hillary, and Hillary is a DNC triangulated “centrist”.
I’ve had unpopular views most of my life, and I’m not so stupid as to believe that Americans, en masse, will suddenly adopt my world-view. Progressives vote for progress, and we take what we can get. Always some, usually not much, never enough.
And then there’s the sheer practicality to consider: these clowns have totally fucked things up, and in ways we don’t even know about yet! We have to pry thier greasy fingers off our necks, and then assess the situation. We know its bad, we don’t know how bad. We have to pull the truck out of the ditch before we can even start to think about switching out engines.
[/QUOTE]
And there you have it. I try to explain this to my conservative friends as well. The first step to getting back on track and returning to some kind of honest discussion of how to address issues is to throw the bums out. It seems crazy to vote for McCain in hopes he might defy every indication he’s given that he’ll just continue the bad policies and lies the Bush admin has been doing for years. Would they rather have a liberal who is willing to listen and find compromises or another pretend conservative who lies to their face and then fucks as all.
we need major finance reform for elections and a more attentive public if things are going to get better. Then perhaps we can find some compromises that actually address the issues.
[QUOTE=Liberal]
That’s a dumb fucking question, since Kerry didn’t accuse anybody of perjury, murder, insurrection, or treason. He pinned responsibility for all the atrocities in Vietnam squarely where it belonged, on a government engaged in conscription for a political cause.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, I guess I got a little confused by the “murder” part (bolding above mine) and general accusations of war crimes.
[QUOTE=The Dishonorable John Kerry*]
I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command…
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country.
[/QUOTE]
Oh, I see, he was just repeating what he heard, which turned out to be unsupported by the facts. And some of the people who did the telling were never even in Vietnam. I guess he was weaselly even way back then. How woulda guessed? And just to prevent some modern day weaseling, cutting off someone’s head does necessarily kill them. I’d call it murder. How about you?
*Please excuse the redundancy.