I’d need more information. I’ve barely escaped some kind of work farm and I’ve already been found. Is this some kind of drug operation I’m escaping? Do I know if the gang running the farm has all the locals under their thumb? Is the farmer armed? Am I armed? Have I actually been spotted yet? Could I get away without killing the farmer?
I can try to do so but nobody has asked. Was there something unrealistic in the section you quoted?
~Max
Sure, why wouldn’t I? I could save five lives by pulling that lever.
~Max
I only claim to be a subject matter expert in my field, which is healthcare administration for a small doctor’s office in the U.S. Even so, there are people more expert than I.
~Max
… you didn’t need more information when you were “white”. Why do you suddenly need more context now you are Black?
Work with what you’ve got.
My previous example set in 2022 was me finding people in my own garage today. I didn’t need any more context as to the local environment.
~Max
…you didn’t need any additional context for the example in the 1800’s.
Just give us your answer already.
You haven’t given me enough information. If I was actually in that situation, and didn’t even know what I had escaped from, I would just sit in the corner in shock until I came to grips with my amnesia, or was shot by the farmer who may or may not be armed and may or may not have seen me. Am I blind or something?
~Max
The fact that you answered the question when I was clearly taking the piss about there being any moral dilemma says something about your moral intuition.
Still, you got it right!
Baby steps.
Learned a new phrase today, so thanks for that I suppose.
I wasn’t 100% sure if you were serious or not.
~Max
…so just to be crystal clear here:
You were able to imagine living in 1858 Vermont, opening up a barn door, and instantly decide what to do with the black man you found in the barn, without any additional context.
But you can’t imagine being a black man in America today, without knowing what “kind of drug operation you were escaping.”
Gotcha.
To be clear: I never said you were escaping a drug operation. I said you were escaping indentured servitude. As in they are the victim here.
That you went straight to the assumption they were part of a drug operation says everything we need to know about you.
That’s why I asked. I have no idea what you are referring to when you talk about indentured servitude in the U.S. in the year 2022. Involuntary servitude is illegal except as punishment for a crime; in other words, the only legal indentured servitude is one which I am free to leave at any time, or following conviction. We don’t normally refer to inmates working on penal farms as indentured servants. Which makes me wonder why I would feel the need to escape indentured servitude. It follows that I am escaping some sort of illegal farm.
You said it was a farm I escaped from. What kind of illegal farm operation would it make sense to say I ‘escaped’ from it, and hid in a nearby barn? So that’s where I got a drug operation from.
ETA: Hence the question, which is a question and not an assumption,
~Max
…I mean: here’s the thing.
I don’t care about your answer.
The hypothetical wasn’t the point.
How you responded to the hypothetical was the point.
You are simply incapable of framing anything outside of the framework of “White America.” Even if you aren’t white yourself. You don’t know the history of indentured servitude. You even think that it isn’t happening today.
I admit, I could be ignorant of the indentured servants working farms in modern America. If that’s a thing I know nothing of it.
I also admit that my Google skills are not helping me find out what on earth you are talking about. Do you have an article or something I could look at? I don’t even have a frame of reference. Everything I’m seeing ends with the 13th Amendment or the downfall of peonage in the early to mid twentieth century.
~Max
“Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”
…it didn’t end with the 13th. It was enshrined.
And illegal involuntary servitude also exists.
You could say if you have penal farms in mind. I previously ruled that out because it’s very weird to call inmates indentured servants.
If I’m escaping a penal farm wearing a jumpsuit or what have you, or if the alarm is going off just down the road, that’s important context because under no circumstance would I appeal to a random farmer’s humanity. This leaves killing the man or submitting to him, which is a false choice if there is any possible way to escape or remain undetected without killing him. Something I wouldn’t know without more details, such as whether I have already been spotted, or who is armed.
If I escaped from a penal farm there is also the question of why, because my default opinion is that it is wrong to do so if I’ve been convicted and sentenced. I assume a slave in 1858 was born into chains, and was never part of the society that punishes him. He has no reason to respect the laws. An inmate in 2022 is probably in a different situation. If I don’t have a good reason (in my opinion) for breaking out, then the moral thing for me to do would be to turn myself in.
Surely, but again, how can I tell you what I’d do if I don’t know the circumstance?
~Max
It’s not, if an inmate is sentenced to work, it is indentured servitude by definition. The same one Banquet_Bear linked to a few posts ago.
Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years. The contract, called an “indenture”, may be entered voluntarily for eventual compensation or debt repayment, or it may be imposed as a judicial punishment.
…but I didn’t have penal farms in mind. I was simply answering your question regarding 13th Amendment and/or the downfall of peonage in the early to mid twentieth century. The 13th Amendment has an exception. But it wasn’t what I had in mind at all.
When you “were living in Vermont in 1858” you didn’t need to know the circumstance before you narrowed it down to either turning them in or kicking them out.
Because you are simply incapable of framing anything outside of the framework of White America.
You can imagine being the white farmer that opens the door to the barn.
But you are incapable of imagining being the black man behind the door.
While technically true (and I understand the link), in my experience colloquial useage of “indentured servitude” does not imply penal labor.
~Max
…probably because you don’t listen enough to any black people. Which means that you frame everything through a colonialist, white American lens. (and it doesn’t matter if you are white or not)
Can I suggest that you start with watching the 13th by Ava DuVernay.
The hypotheticals are materially different. In the 1858 scenario I am in the position of a man who discovers a fugitive. In your 2022 scenario I am in the position of the man who is a fugitive. Surely you can understand that the decision making process will be different, and rely on different circumstances, depending on whether I am the person who discovers a fugitive, versus if I am the fugitive himself?
In the 1858 scenario I made the assumption that I had the runaway slave in my power. It was written into the hypothetical that he begged me to stay. I assumed I was armed and the runaway was not. I assumed the runaway faced probable re-enslavement, assured bodily injury, and quite possibly death if turned over. I assumed I understood, in general terms, his motivation to escape slavery. These were all factors in my decision. If you remember, even then I had to say “depending on circumstances not specified”.
In the 2022 scenario I haven’t made any of these assumptions because they seemed inappropriate to make. If I assume that I will beg for the man to let me stay, as the runaway did in 1858, then that makes your entire hypothetical moot. If I assume I am completely in the man’s power then that rules out the “kill him” option. If I assume my punishments for being returned to the authorities is probable enslavement, assured bodily injury, and quite possibly death, I would do anything humanly possible to avoid being cought, and would take the wildest chances, including attacking an innocent man if necessary.
If you are capable of answering your own hypothetical definitively, and not conditional upon unspecified circumstances, I suggest you are incapable of imagining being the black man behind the door.
~Max