Pitting my idiot Ex-husband, dogs, and dog people. Long and rather pointless.

[magellan01]

@yBeayf

And to the OP, that sucks. I hope your husband realizes that his foolishness has led to both his and his daughter’s injuries, and to the needless death of an innocent dog.

I love dogs, but it will be a long time before I own one, because I recognize I don’t have the time to devote to properly training and socializing it. Threads like this should be required reading for anybody who decides to impulsively acquire a dog.

Well said.

[yBeayf]

I hope your husband realizes…

Heh. Ex-husband. I didn’t mean to imply you were still married to the fool.

[Merneith]

@carnivorousplant

What purpose does the clicker serve? Is it a reward, does it serve to get their attention?

Just to round out the other info here, clicker training is based on BF Skinner’s ideas about operant conditioning as a way of changing behavior. Two of his students took his ideas and and developed the method in their lab for working with all sorts of critters, from cockroaches on up. The students, Keller and Marion Breland, eventually worked with the US Navy’s Marine Mammal program. The Brelands also taught clicker techniques to animal show trainers, especially marine shows. (You can’t punish a dolphin - he’ll just go sulk on the other side of the tank. But the clicker training lets you guide his behavior by rewarding him specifically for his actions.)

Here’s a good site to read more about operant conditioning and clicker training -
http://www.clickertrain.com/whatis.html

Karen Pryor’s site is another good place to visit. She’s a biologist who began popularizing the technique some years ago.
http://www.clickertraining.com/home/

[Cat_Whisperer]

I tried the submission test on my two cats, and I would say the results were pretty accurate - my cat who has a will to please me was very submissive (just rolling her eyes patiently, as if to say, “Now what? Can I go, please?”), and my husband’s cat, who does mostly as she pleases, acted like she would never submit. My cat was easy to train, too (a bunny slope cat, if you please), and my husband’s cat was much more difficult to train as far as she’s gotten.

Oh yeah, the OP - it is a crime that your ex’s mistakes cost a dog its life. That’s just not right.

[Cerri]

The situation is a big shame, and I’m sorry for all concerned. (Well, except the ex, he sounds like a putz).

I would however like to point out another viewpoint about Alpha Rolling, from a man who spent 9 years researching the social behavior of dogs, and the link is, coincidentally to this thread, from a site that promotes clicker training.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies:

These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative – drawing conclusions about “wolf behavior” based on about 1% of wolf life.
The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the “dominance model” comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an “appeasement ritual” instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. **The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf “pins” it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?**
.
Finally, after the studies, the researchers made cavalier extrapolations from wolf-dog, dog-dog, and dog-human based on their “findings.” Unfortunately, this nonsense still abounds.

And to highlight what I think is the key point to the article, for people who may not bother reading the link:

So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?

**Using physical force of any kind reduces your “rank.” Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble. **

To be “alpha,” control the resources. I don’t mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great – ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, you are alpha by definition.

Again, I’m not judging, nor trying to act like I’m judging the situation in the OP, because sometimes, things are just A Damn Shame and it’s no one’s fault. (Ok, except maybe the ex here, because, again, he sounds like a putz).

Just trying to give a different viewpoint for the Alpha Roll, because I believe there are far better ways of establishing alpha dominance in a dog-human relationship, and think the Roll is unhelpful at best, dangerous at worst, especially for people unfamilar with dogs.

[Cerri]

The situation is a big shame, and I’m sorry for all concerned. (Well, except the ex, he sounds like a putz).

I would however like to point out another viewpoint about Alpha Rolling, from a man who spent 9 years researching the social behavior of dogs, and the link is, coincidentally to this thread, from a site that promotes clicker training.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2001/dominance.htm

The original alpha/dominance model was born out of short-term studies of wolf packs done in the 1940s. These were the first studies of their kind. These studies were a good start, but later research has essentially disproved most of the findings. There were three major flaws in these studies:

These were short-term studies, so the researchers concentrated on the most obvious, overt parts of wolf life, such as hunting. The studies are therefore unrepresentative – drawing conclusions about “wolf behavior” based on about 1% of wolf life.
The studies observed what are now known to be ritualistic displays and misinterpreted them. Unfortunately, this is where the bulk of the “dominance model” comes from, and though the information has been soundly disproved, it still thrives in the dog training mythos.

For example, alpha rolls. The early researchers saw this behavior and concluded that the higher-ranking wolf was forcibly rolling the subordinate to exert his dominance. Well, not exactly. This is actually an “appeasement ritual” instigated by the SUBORDINATE wolf. **The subordinate offers his muzzle, and when the higher-ranking wolf “pins” it, the lower-ranking wolf voluntarily rolls and presents his belly. There is NO force. It is all entirely voluntary.

A wolf would flip another wolf against his will ONLY if he were planning to kill it. Can you imagine what a forced alpha roll does to the psyche of our dogs?**
.
Finally, after the studies, the researchers made cavalier extrapolations from wolf-dog, dog-dog, and dog-human based on their “findings.” Unfortunately, this nonsense still abounds.

And to highlight what I think is the key point to the article, for people who may not bother reading the link:

So what does this mean for the dog-human relationship?

**Using physical force of any kind reduces your “rank.” Only middle-ranked animals insecure in their place squabble. **

To be “alpha,” control the resources. I don’t mean hokey stuff like not allowing dogs on beds or preceding them through doorways. I mean making resources contingent on behavior. Does the dog want to be fed. Great – ask him to sit first. Does the dog want to go outside? Sit first. Dog want to greet people? Sit first. Want to play a game? Sit first. Or whatever. If you are proactive enough to control the things your dogs want, you are alpha by definition.

Again, I’m not judging, nor trying to act like I’m judging the situation in the OP, because sometimes, things are just A Damn Shame and it’s no one’s fault. (Ok, except maybe the ex here, because, again, he sounds like a putz).

Just trying to give a different viewpoint for the Alpha Roll, because I believe there are far better ways of establishing alpha dominance in a dog-human relationship, and think the Roll is unhelpful at best, dangerous at worst, especially for people unfamilar with dogs.

For those who ask what experience I might have with dominant dogs, I have owned several Rottweilers, the smallest of which was a 110 pound bitch, all of which were dominant dogs by nature. I never had a problem establishing dominance without ever employing the Alpha Roll.

Small side story though- Admittedly with one of my Rotts, my 135 pound bitch, she never really gave up trying to grasp the alpha bitch role in the “pack” as regards the Alpha male (my bf at the time, who was, in her eyes, her Lord, God, and Master, all without him ever working with her training-wise, while I’d spent thousands of dollars and countless hours working with her) went, though never in an aggressive manner…she’d just ignore my commands entirely without a prong collar in his presence, and she would only ever pull that when we were at home with my bf.

I’d give her a command when he was sitting around, and she’d literally look at him with an “C’mon dad, do I really have to?” look. He’d just look at her and snap his fingers, and she’d instantly do whatever it was I’d commanded her to do before she ignored me. Did I mention he had never deigned to actually work with her, training-wise, unlike myself who’d spent two straight years with her in training in both obedience and cart-pulling? sigh

Oddly enough, as long as he wasn’t around, I never had to use more than a slip-lead for her to respond instantly, though I always used the prong collar when I took her out in public around people when we were just walking/hanging out, (not when carting though, she just wore her usual cart-harness and one of those muzzle-leads for direction). Some dogs are just quirky like that.