Pitting The Republican for no reason whatsoever

Scylla, you’ve been dragged through this long enough, but I just want to point out one thing. On the previous page you said:

This kind of ticks me off, especially since I went to bat for you in this thread right here, and raised some genuinely interesting questions which I have yet to be able to answer.

It disappoints me to see you viewing the so-called left wing of this board in this way because I suspect you still, after all these years, somehow can’t empathize with my side of the problem. That’s unfortunate, and you should know this from personal experience: you had to put up with eight years of a guy who obviously pushed your buttons, and had to sit there and take it when your point of view was attacked and overridden. Now that the tables are turned what you are hearing is the shrill whistle of outrage over a litany of conservative actions of questionable motivation and legality–just like the last guy. (This isn’t the time or place to quibble over a comparison of those actions, and I won’t do it.)

If we can begin to understand one another a little better, then the fight against ignorance might finally begin to get some traction. Right now we’re just spin-doctoring ourselves straight into the septic tank.

Sublight:

That’s an interesting effort. Not that you’d need to do it, but we’d need more than two threads to get a representative sample, which is why I suggested a whole page of GD.

Two threads, especially when one is a Reeder thread, don’t give us enough.

In order to get a valid result we’d have to follow the full methodology I’ve described.

Sofa King:

Well let’s examine it because my quote is not an attack but rather a criticism (and I guess an admonition, too) It’s also one that I’ve heard espoused by quite a few people on the left, including Leiberman. I beleive RTF also started a thread on the subject a while back.

It seems to me that the major unifying force amongst Democrats these days is a hatred of the Shrub, and that liberals in general don’t really seem to be standing for anything as a group other than being against Republicans.

What is the message of the Democratic Presidential candidates?

So I think it’s a valid criticism/admonition.
It would be like saying the major problem with the right is the Social Conservatives who seem to desire a repeat of the Spanish Inquisition in their totalitarian approach to enforcing their personal version of morality.

I would acknowledge that as a problem with the right.

Job creation, fiscal responsibility, and an end to unilateral foreign policy. That’s just for starters, of course. Peruse any of the websites of Democratic contenders and you’ll see plenty of policy statements and discussions. It’s the sharper criticisms of Bush that make the press, of course, but it’s bordering on willful ignorance to claim that you can’t tell what the candidates stand for.

Ahem… TR, old man, allow me to enlighten you: 'Ol Sam here is a little delusional. As a leftie of some rep (some deserved, alot not) around here, I can, with a forgiving chuckle, assure you that Republicans are hardly Le Persecuted, nor are lefties permitted to spew lies with impunity. Hell, lefties aren’t even able to spew the truth without getting dragged around the block, and I have the scars.

I can only guess that somebody didn’t get his cream o’ wheat this morning and he’s feeling a bit pouty.

Now you gone and done it. I’m glad this is the Pit.

I confessed to being full of shit, huh? Gonna “caveat” your way right out of it. Looks like when given the choice between 1) Put up or 2) Shut up, you chose: option 3) Keep crying like a little sissy. So we are back to square 1 - boo fucking hoo, Scylla. You got nothing. You’re clicking on empty chambers. Your argument was nothing of the sort, your challenge was too challenging for you, but you can whine like nobody’s business. If that’s what you do best, knock yourself out. I’ll just wait for the part where your breath starts hitching, your face is all puffy and red, and your mom has come out to ask, “What’s wrong? What did you do to my little Scylla?” I expect you’d interject, “He was picking on me! They are all picking on me! It’s not fair! Waaaaa! They’re snide and hateful pieces of shit who just like to de- de- deeeeemonize!”

It’s really rather embarrassing.

Looks pretty boilerplate to me.

“As Miss America my platform will be better education, feeding the hungry and world peace.”

The “end to unilateral foreign policy” to me appears as an attack against Bush as the characterization is debatable.

Everybody’s got policy statements and discussions. What is it that the Democrats stand for right now? What are they for? What do they believe in?

(These are not my unique ctriticisms. As I’ve mentioned Joe Lieberman and others have lamented the lack of positive message coming through.)

As far as I can tell, kerry’s main message seems to be that Bush sucks.

You may disagree with the Conservative/Republican message. I certainly disagree with parts of it.

Bush’s message though seems to be pretty damn clear.

I.E.

  1. We are in a war against terrorism and we will do whatever it takes, no matter what, to win that war, no matter what. We will not stop and we will not change and we will not be dissuaded from this, until the job is done. Make no mistake we are going to do this.

  2. Cutting taxes will stimulate the economy and help it recover as will an easing of restrictions on business, and the defecits being generated now, while necessary will be ameliorated as the economy continues to recover.

  3. Religion has a legitimate place in charity and education.

  4. Social programs don’t require funding unless they benefit the elderly because charities, individuals and religious organizations can do the job.
    That seems to be Bush’s message.
    What’s Kerry’s?

Why don’t you spend ten minutes to go find out instead of dwelling in dittohead ignorance?

http://www.johnkerry.com

Pretty fucking simple to learn something with this here newfangled Internet thing, ain’t it?

I just wanted you to know that you made me laugh out loud. Good one.

Minty:

Pit or not I have no tolerance for you being a prick after your last little hissy fit. You want to talk or trade insults?

John Kerry has a platform, John’s got oodles of platform. He’s also got the charisma of a pencil sharpener. More’s the pity.

All right: John Kerry’s website. Let’s see what is his message?

Front and center is a story about him being a Vietnam Veteran.

Next up is that he likes Veterans and he likes them

Next up is that he supports soldiers in Iraq.


Let’s look at his first listed speech, and see if there’s a central message:

Allright, he likes civil rights and supports gays and lesbians (but this is after all a human rights dinner, so let’s see if this is a theme or a one shot.)

Then there’s a whole bunch of George Bush is really bad and everything is his fault.

"Yet today, our nation is off course – not only in the march toward equality, but on great issues ranging from the economy to education to health care and social justice.

Let me put it plainly. On every one of those issues, and more, this Administration has moved America backwards or in the wrong direction: The budget busted, the stock market down, unemployment up, the uninsured up, crime rates up, and America increasingly isolated in the world." etc

Then he lets it be known that he’s a veteran.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit… right to choose… bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

Doma’s bad.

Ok. Next Speech:

George Bush is a liar. He sucks. He’s a fuckup.

Everything’s all fucked up. We’re not ready. It’s Bush’s fault. Bush has failed to make America safer since 9/11.

Kerry’s gonna fix this by making sure the people on the front lines are prepared and he’s gonna send more soldiers places.

No unfunded mandates

Next speech (actually the one after as the next looks like a repeat):

He’s a Vietnam Veteran.

There were Latinos in Vietnam.

He’s a Vietnam Veteran.

He learned a lot as a Vietnam Veteran

Bush sucks because he didn’t land the plane on the aircraft carrier himself.

Bush is a liar. He’s dishonest.

Oooh, ooh. His vision:

“I’m running for President to give Americans a clear choice between two very different visions.”

Cool let’s see what it is:

"y vision of America doesn’t put CEO’s golden parachutes ahead of senior citizens’ golden years.

My vision of America doesn’t encourage the wealthiest Americans to get wealthier because we saddle our children with debt.

My vision of America doesn’t glorify a creed of greed where Enron executives bilk the retirement savings of ordinary investors, where polluters are given a free pass and powerful corporations enjoy sweetheart deals at the expense of everyday Americans.

My vision of America is not content to run a farm system for prisons and pay $50,000 a year for prison cells instead of investing $10,000 a year in Head Start, Early Start, Smart Start, and Healthy Start.

My vision of America isn’t driven by political strategists who give bills fancy names and then refuse to fund them. The President dares to call his education bill ‘The No Child Left Behind Act’ but with the stroke of a pen he turned it into an unfunded mandate denying teachers, children and parents the resources needed to do the job…"

And, about five more of what his vision isn’t.

We can sum up this “vision” as “George Bush has a sucky vision.”

Let’s see schools, jobs, hispanics. He’s big on hispanics (apparently this is a speech to hispanics. No mention of how big he used to be on gay rights.)

Raise the minimum wage to help hispanics.

Education is important. Hispanics. Hispanics.

Hispanics. Hispanics. Hispanics. Hispanic interests. Immigration.

George Bush is a failure.

Hispanics.

George Bush sucks.

Allright let’s looks at his issues.

Agriculture - Likes farmers, wants to help them. They’re cool.

Children - Very important.

Civil Rights - Very Important

Crime - bad.

That’s enough of that.
So let’s see what is Kerry’s message?

Seems to me that “George bush sucks” is the prevailing theme, followed closely by “I am a Vietnam Veteran.”

So again. I will ask. What is his positive message? What is his vision?

I don’t see one.

After reveiwing Kerry’s cite (though not exhaustively,) I stand by my original characterization that Kerry’s campaign message is that Bush sucks.

Scylla, you’re full of shit. Let’s use Kerry’s views on civil rights as an example. You say that Kerry’s position on civil rights is that they are important. Yes, that is true. But if you read beyond the page header, you’ll see that Kerry does list his views on civl rights. Some examples:
[ul][li]Believes affirmative action should continue[/li][li]Supports election reform[/li][li]Wants to expand hate crime laws[/ul][/li]Election reform? Expanding hate crime laws? Looks like a vision. Looks like a positive message. Could we summarize these and other points by stating his opinion on civil rights in one word? Yes. We can do that with any candidate. But I guess it’s easier for you do be an obtuse fucktard than to admit that Kerry does indeed outline his positions on his webpage.

Allright a little more review. Let’s try to say something nice.

You have to work to find it, but it appears to me that Kerry is somewhat moderate and is socially progressive in a way that I like, respect and support.

Seems to come down on the party line on most major issues with the exception of being a big military supporter. Did you know he was a Vietnam Veteran?

It’s a shame that he’s not making his message his social progressiveness.

But I think it’s a very fair and acurate statement to suggest his central them is that Bush sucks.

Which is what I said the problem is… Lack of a positive central message.

Sure. I’ll trade you a “Yomama” for “Stop being such a fucktard.”

What the hell is wrong with you, Scylla. I’m not the world’s biggest Kerry supporter. However, return to the site. In the left-hand column, click on the word “Issues” (You should be familiar with those). You will be greeted with

I scanned the first three or four, and you know what? I didn’t see Bush’s name mentioned once. If you’re being a moron for the point of being obtuse, I ask you to quit doing so. If you couldn’t negotiate the website to locate his stance on issues, well, I pity you, and ask that you just return to writing pseudo homage pieces to family members that are really attempts to justify calling other people pieces of shit.

I forgot to add: Thanks for the reminder of the type of logical strategy that I have come to know and love as the Scyllagism.

I would bet a beer that TR is laughing his ass off at this thread.
Actually, this is one of the better lib/pubbies threads I have seen in years.

Pretty mellow, Minty and Scylla aren’t even bitching much at each other yet, and Stoid even weighed in without catching much bullshit. Very enjoyable back and forth.

Of course, in the next few posts, the train will probably come off the tracks…

Are you sure he was talking about me? Did I miss it? I don’t recall agreeing with Ann Coulter about anything.

Stoid said:

Well, maybe a little. Maybe I’m also getting tired of the continual attacks on December every time he says anything, while people like elucidator and Reeder can do the exact same thing on the left with impugnity, and even extremists like Rashak Mani and complete drooling idiots like Roger_Mexico seem to get a pass, because they’re anti-Bush.

And then The Republican comes along and gets absolutely hammered by you guys, for little more than some confusion about board etiquette.

Minty said:

That sounds exactly like me. So why the hell do we never seem to agree on anything?

So I went through that whole thing and you’re pissed that I missed these three subheaders?

If these are his vision why isn’t he reiterating them over in his speeches?

If this is his vision why is it not the central theme when he speaks?

It looked more like Democratic boilerplate to me than a vision or a central message.
He certainly didn’t put it on the front page.

Take a look at George Bush’s website to see what I mean.

Front and center is a “Message from George Bush.”

Let’s look at it:

http://georgebush.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=1947

Let’s see:

Thanks for visiting.

He has a “hopeful and optimistic” message.

Going to focus on "strengthening the economy, protecting the homeland, and winning the war on terror. We will continue to earn the confidence of the American people by working to keep this nation prosperous, strong and secure. "

Wants to solve problems rather than let them go.

Going to continue to kick ass in the war on terror.

Tax relief will help the economy.

Is going to be nice to people with compassionate conservatism (instead of funding social programs, I guess)

Prescription drugs for seniors (gotta take care of the old folks)

Expand freedom to the globe.

Has a lot of work and plans to work hard.
Ok. That’s it.

Just what I said.

  1. Beat up terrorists
  2. Tax relief to help the economy.
  3. needy people need help but only old people get money.

See what I mean?

Like it or not there’s a positive and easily discernible central message there.

Then, like Kerry he’s got a bunch of tabs saying that children are important, freedom is important, he’s concerned about this and that and the rest of the predictable boilerplate B.S.
But he does have a positive central message.