Yeah, I was a bit snippy and came off as an asshole. I guess that “it’s the pit, so I can be an asshole about what I say” attitude comes out.
I agree that there are many ways to do things, and most of my vitrol comes from those that read the BB magazines and try to tell me that the way I do things is wrong. They aren’t, and I can back up my way with citations. They may be able to do so as well, BUT, I am not saying their way is wrong.
I’m not saying stretching is harmful (though some of the bouncy stuff obviously is), just that it isn’t necessary. I do light warm ups but don’t slowly work my way up in weights when I lift, people notice and try to tell me I am doing it wrong. I’m not, just different. I am not saying doing squats to parallel is harmful, just that full squats aren’t harmful. (It may not be as cut and dry as that, I admit)
I am not saying eating 300 grams of protein is harmful either. I am just tired of being a heretic because I don’t spend loads of money on protein powders. Yech. Give me a slim fast shake over them any day. That and lots of pasta. MMM.
Anyhow, sorry I was a prick and came off as saying the OPs way was wrong. Its just that my way isn’t wrong.
If your knees were a simple lever, then parallel would be the least stable position, and stopping at parallel would definitely be bad. Knees are different enough from a simple lever that that model doesn’t apply, so you have to look at the experimental data. One thing worth noting is that vastus medialis (IIRC) doesn’t get significantly activated until below parallel, so from both a strength and size perspective, squatting deep is better.
Regarding flexibility, stretches are no good for acute injury prevention but inflexibility can prevent you from executing a certain exercise in good form (squats are a good example) and can introduce postural issues, which may lead to nerve impingement, which really kills your strength/size development.
Well, stretching certainly less important than once thought in terms of injury prevention, and there is indeed increasing evidence of this (e.g., a recent metastudy in Clin J Sport Med). However, there are exceptions; for example, there’s (weak) evidence that runner’s achilles tendon injury is more likely if the athlete does not stretch. It’s also true that a sport that requires frequent (or even occasional) extreme movements requires great flexibility to avoid injuries at the extremes of motion - e.g., kickboxing, climbing.
On the other hand, if you look at - especially - runners who have trained for years and never stretched, they invariably look like a badly assembled clothes horse.
Incidentally, the ACSM (PDF) recommends squatting to the thighs parallel to floor position (although they do accept that deep squats have their place).
Sorta related to the OP (but backwards) is that I do occasionally see people (and signs in gyms) suggesting some training methods are wrong when they actually are not. E.g., eccentric calf / achilles exercises are discouraged in the gym I go to, despite their established utility in achilles tendon rehab. How can a new exerciser know if the advice they’re receiving is bolux?
That’s the thing. I don’t mind people helping me out with my form at the gym, but if someone brought up the fact they had a friend who could train me for a reasonable price, I’d immediately think they were just trying to sell me something. It all depends on how it is brought up. If we’re going along and I mention that I really appreciate the help and it would be nice to have someone to show me more frequently, then it would be okay. But out of the blue? I’d be put off.
Stretching isn’t as important as would be doing a general warm-up, would you agree? I mean, doing 135 a couple of times on chest before putting the heavy weight. That’s the stretching you need.
And on the protein, the biggest guys usually are the biggest eaters. Genetics aside, it would seem that a lot of protein helps building a lot of muscle, muscle that isn’t exactly needed and doesn’t have to do with your strength, and it actually decreases your freedom of movement, but muscle nonetheless. Though I am honestly curious. Can you fetch me a site on the nutrition side of things?
Warm ups are a good idea, but I wouldn’t say warmup = Stretching.
As for the protein, some of the most liberal numbers I have seen is 1.8 grams of protein per Kg of bodyweight. From here: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0126.htm
The ACSM recommends 15-20% of your caloric consumption to be protein.
It pains me to see people using poor form at the gym, mainly because I know in how much pain they’re going to be in when they get hurt.
That being said, I would pointed it out to one of the gym staff and let them offer some pointers. My gym has a policy expressly prohibiting “free lance training” for just the reason you’ve brought up.
I had this nice long post all written up which detailed the conversation I had with the subject of the OP, but it got eaten up by the hamsters when Jerry put them all to sleep so he could do his updates, and I don’t really feel like retyping it all. Bottom line is that typing it all out showed me that I did come across like I was trying to sell something, which isn’t how I meant it but I can see where he got that. I still think the “Mind your own business, prick” comment was uncalled for, though.
Also, I used the word “fat” on purpose. I didn’t want anyone reading the OP to think that he was some big musclehead who obviously knew what he was doing because he’s big. I thought it important to emphasize that point. I should’ve known it would bring in the Offenderati[sup]TM[/sup].
I know this is a pit thread and all, but I am intrigued by the expertise show here by some of you folks.
I am a martial artist looking to do a little weight and endurance training to supplement my usual routine. I used to use the gym machines, but I do not think I am getting a great deal of mileage on those. I want to begin using free weights. Naturally, I want to learn good form and not injure myself. I am suspicious of some of the trainers at the gym I used to attend based on overheard remarks, and I am quite confident that most of the books on the subject are garbage.
Any suggestions for resources to turn to? I am more interested in reading some of the scientific literature than reading about routines “to get that six-pack in just three weeks.”
A lot of books are garbage but there are some good ones too. The one I always recommend for someone intersted in free weights is Getting Stronger by Bill Pearl. It’s been around forever (so you can get copies relatively cheap) but it’s an amazing resource for free weight exercises with line drawings that will show you proper form and ideas for creating your own workout routines.
You also might check out Pavel Tsatsouline’s books. Much of his stuff seems targeted for the martial artist. Strength and flexability both. He is easy to read and can be considered an expert- though I think his MS is honorary. (I could be wrong on this, just something that seems to stick in my memory)
Oh, absolutely. I’d be pissed if someone “telemarketed” me at the Y, but saying “MYOB, prick” is definitely not on.
You know, it’s funny - I are fat (I mean, REALLY fat) and I understood exactly why you used it. I read it as you were using the perfectly logical adjective of “fat” to point out in a single word that the guy probably isn’t all that well-educated as far as self-care goes, anyway. He’s probably not eating the right things, and he obviously isn’t an “exercise expert”, and that information was imparted with one word: “Fat”. So, I think that this word was perfectly justified in this instance, because it was, in fact, relevant to the story.
“PItting this guy at my gym who doesn’t know jack shit about exercising and I know it because he’s waaaay out of shape and doesn’t exercise properly”? Nah. “Pitting this one fat guy at my gym” says the same basic thing…only shorter.
Fellow who enjoys the rowers here, but also with a bad back. I haven’t touched the rower since my back injurry, but hope to do so in the future (After being 90days pain free according to my family doc) . I have always been carefull to avoid curving my back forwards, to try to keep the small of the back arched, and to “row low” i.e. keep the oar handle low and pull it to my belly-button, not my chest.
What else should I be making sure I do? what should I avoide like the plague? please enlighten me…
Has the sense of personal isolation and individualism grown in our society to such a point where we are never allowed to try and give someone a pointer, piece of advice or to critique them in anyway? Furthermore, attempts to do this should be met with insults from the individual?
Very sad.
A simple, “thanks, but I disagree with you and will continue doing what I am doing” would suffice. Or, for shits and giggles, maybe a wow, can you show me so I don’t fucking hurt myself.
You say you cringe when you see someone doing something that is going to hurt themself. It is so sad that you have been sucked into this culture of individualism and isolation (just like I have- we all have) that you cannot say anything to help another person out of fear of causing conflict.
This is why people watch others drown and videotape it. This is why we listen to domestic violence go on and do nothing about it in our society.
I am not pitting you, I am saddened by our culture.
As I said, the insults were uncalled for, but I highly doubt there was any time in history where people enjoyed being critiqued by strangers. As for the notion that isolation has grown, give me a freaking break. Things are more open in terms of dealing with domestic violence and child abuse than ever before in history.
Right, because the two are remotely analogous. Does it take much effort to be as stupid as you?
How would you like it if a delivery guy walked into your place and said, “Man, looking around here I can tell that you have no idea what you’re doing. I have a friend who’s an interior designer. Here’s his card.”
Being an expert in something does not give you carte blanche to interfere in other people’s business, even if you are well intentioned. My husband is a financial advisor. We have tons of friends and relatives who make crappy choices with their money. He would NEVER presume to scrutinize their finances, be it in public or in private, without their expressed invitation.
And, amazingly, once people find out he’s a financial expert, 9 times out of 10 they’ll end up ASKING him for his opinion at one time or another. Usually it’s over a beer when they’re feeling relaxed. See, most people know when they’re out of shape and need help, be it physically or financially. And most people really do want good advice from a competent advisor. But you have to be patient and let them seek it.
There are a hundred ways you could have approached this guy and not have it resulted in you being called a prick. Had you approached the guy and talked about basketball, you’d have had much better success. If you are good at what you do, I have no doubt he would have eventually asked for your advice. Not in the first meeting; maybe not in the second. But eventually.
