Placating Deaniacs

[Merijeek]

@New Iskander

Apparently, you need a reminder that it was Democrats oppressing ex-slaves in the South for more then 100 years.

Yes, and it was also the Civil Rights Act that turned a good portion of the south into permanent Red States.

So, why are people still feeding NI, anyways?

-Joe

[BrainGlutton]

What does all this have to do with Howard Dean, anyway? He’s not a Nazi. He’s not a Communist. He’s not a socialist. He’s not even a leftist of any kind. (Compare him to, say, Dennis Kucinich or Bernie Sanders.) Howard Dean is maybe five degrees to the left of the neoliberal Democratic Leadership Council. Why does New Iskander seem to regard it with such fear/horror/whatever that such a man is currently the DNC chairman?

[tomndebb]

::: sigh :::

@New Iskander

I shall now proceed to prove once and for all that you are an Evil Thing from Outer Space.

As GIGObuster has noted, this is the Chewbacca defense. If you cannot even defend your own proposition in GD please confine yourself to the BBQ Pit or MPSIMS or somewhere. (And I would have to say that you have provided nothing resembling a defense of the ludicrous notion that Fascism is a left-wing movement–a notion that was invented by right-wing cranks hoping to avoid being associated with the Nazis.)

On the other hand,

@Merijeek

So, why are people still feeding NI, anyways?

Ill disguised accusations of trolling are definitely prohibited in GD (as elsewhere). Do not do this again.

[ /Moderator Mode ]

[HPL]

@New Iskander

I asked you to support your statement about Nazis being originally Right wing with proof from their written programme.

You never asked me to do any such thing. You said:

@New Iskander

You are free to demonstrate Right wing pedigree of Nazi party by providing a single Right wing position of theirs, such as cuts on welfare and education, privatization of industries and so on.

I did so, providing several bullet points of positions where the nazis agreed with the right wing. You have thus far failed to address them.

@New Iskander

You couldn’t do that, but countered that Nazis Left wing agenda is all lies, calculated to deceive the workers and the poor.

Cite? I don’t remember ever saying such a thing, and I can’t find any evidence on this board of me saying such a thing. Do you have magical x-ray glasses that enable you to see such things in my posts?

@New Iskander

You further stated that Nazis and Right wing are both all racist, mono-cultural and anti-gay, therefore Nazis are Right wing.

WHAT THE **** IS YOUR MAJOR MALFUNCTION, BOY?

I’ve repeated on several occasions(but you either aren’t or can’t read) that the the inherent racism in nazism is a difference between the nazis and Republicans in this country, if one wanted to make the comparison. Rather, I agured that facists would be the better comparison, assuming one wanted to go there. I never said they were facists.

ARE YOU EVEN LISTENING TO THE WORDS I AM SAYING?

@New Iskander

I gave you an example that Dems could be also racist. You said it’s irrelevant.

Cite? I never said that either. Perhaps you were thinking of someone else?

@New Iskander

I shall now proceed to prove once and for all that you are an Evil Thing from Outer Space.

So, I see you’ve given up the pretext of having an intellectual arguement and have veered off into Lyndon Larouche terrority. In that case, I will no longer be debating with you. I do not have unlimited time and energy to indulge your intellectually dishonest debating style and you refuse to make an effort to make us take you seriously.

You continually attribute things to me that I never said. Several people in this thread have asked you to demostrate where it was proven on this board that the nazis are left-wingers. So far you have ignored such a request.

If the preceeding paragraphs were too hard and complex for you to grasp, I will repeat myself in simple sentences:

You are not interested in a debate.

You refuse to be honest.

You refuse to answer questions put to you.

You put words in the mouths of others.

I have stuff to do.

I refuse to indulge you any more.

If you decide to debate honestly, I’ll be here.

Until then, have a good life.

[New_Iskander]

Finally, someone I can agree with:

Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes. Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a Socialist state. Ownership has never been abolished, there are still capitalists and workers, and – this is the important point, and the real reason why rich men all over the world tend to sympathize with Fascism – generally speaking the same people are capitalists and the same people workers as before the Nazi revolution. But at the same time the State, which is simply the Nazi Party, is in control of everything. It controls investment, raw materials, rates of interest, working hours, wages. The factory owner still owns his factory, but he is for practical purposes reduced to the status of a manager. Everyone is in effect a State employee, though the salaries vary very greatly. The mere efficiency of such a system, the elimination of waste and obstruction, is obvious. In seven years it has built up the most powerful war machine the world has ever seen.

But the idea underlying Fascism is irreconcilably different from that which underlies Socialism. Socialism aims, ultimately, at a world-state of free and equal human beings. It takes the equality of human rights for granted. Nazism assumes just the opposite. The driving force behind the Nazi movement is the belief in human inequality, the superiority of Germans to all other races, the right of Germany to rule the world. Outside the German Reich it does not recognize any obligations. Eminent Nazi professors have ‘proved’ over and over again that only nordic man is fully human, have even mooted the idea that non-nordic peoples (such as ourselves) can interbreed with gorillas! Therefore, while a species of war-Socialism exists within the German state, its attitude towards conquered nations is frankly that of an exploiter. The function of the Czechs, Poles, French, etc. is simply to produce such goods as Germany may need, and get in return just as little as will keep them from open rebellion.

Thank you, Mr. Orwell!

[New_Iskander]

@tomndebb

::: sigh :::
As GIGObuster has noted, this is the Chewbacca defense. If you cannot even defend your own proposition in GD please confine yourself to the BBQ Pit or MPSIMS or somewhere. (And I would have to say that you have provided nothing resembling a defense of the ludicrous notion that Fascism is a left-wing movement–a notion that was invented by right-wing cranks hoping to avoid being associated with the Nazis.)

You are absolutely wrong.

I provided cites and arguments.

My opponents didn’t provide any support for their statement except their own feelings.

Would you like to be specific and enlighten us about specific identities of ‘right-wing cranks’ you are refering to?

[GIGObuster]

@New Iskander

You are absolutely wrong.

I provided cites and arguments.

My opponents didn’t provide any support for their statement except their own feelings.

Would you like to be specific and enlighten us about specific identities of ‘right-wing cranks’ you are refering to?

That is now a second lie from you in this thread alone.

I supported my position, the fact that you did not reply to what I posted shows what you really are.

So in the end: what HPL said.

[rjung]

@GIGObuster

I supported my position, the fact that you did not reply to what I posted shows what you really are.

I thought that was obvious from the OP.

[tomndebb]

No, I am not “absolutely wrong.”

You provided citations to irrelevant pieces that failed to actually support your conclusions.

Your arguments were risible and without foundation.

Your opponents have provided as many citations as you have and, while a few of them were nearly as lame as yours, the bulk of the good ones demolished your claims.
After your dumb claim, Fear Itsef provided some background demonstrating that the choice of the name of the party had nothing to do with its postion on the political spectrum.
You asked for list of right-wing positions the Nazis held.
HPL provided such list.
You replied with a link to the “25 points” while ignoring the portion of the article that clearly said "It is an amalgamation of demands that would be typically associated with various different (and antagonistic) political trends. " You also pretend that the following points are not right wing points:

"3. We demand land and territory (colonies) for the sustenance of our people, and colonization for our surplus population.

4. Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.

5. Whoever has no citizenship is to be able to live in Germany only as a guest, and must be under the authority of legislation for foreigners.

6. Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans, who have immigrated to Germany since the 2 August 1914, be forced immediately to leave the Reich.

7. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of rent-slavery.

8. We demand substitution of a German common law in place of the Roman Law serving a materialistic world-order."

None of those points can be considered “left wing” by any educated reader. All of them are clearly right-wing (or opposed to left-wing) in nature, (and several of the others appeal to right-wing sensibilities, with their insistence on extreme nationalism, racial identification of citizens, and related issues).

You also dragged in the red herring that most racist policies for around one hundred years were held by the Democrat Party, ignoring the well-documented fact that the Democrats began to split functionally into two parties before 1920 with nearly all anti-racist legislation originating among the (Northern) Democrats from the first through seventh decades of the 20th century–not to mention that your claim had nothing to do with the conversation at that point.)

As to the right-wing fruitcakes trying to distance themselves from the Nazis, I did not record all their names forty years ago when I first encountered their odd attempts to play word games. Suffice it to say that their arguments were much like yours. (You may even have gotten the idea by reading some of their literature.) They basically amounted to the weak claim that the appearnce of the word “sozialistische” in the name of the NDSAP indicated an actual socialist approach to governing, despite the fact that the word had little more meaning in early 20th century Europe than “democratic.”

[BrainGlutton]

WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH HOWARD DEAN?

[tomndebb]

Well, if you are looking at the world through N I’s looking glass, it is important that Dean be associated with every evil in the world, so we have to hang a big LEFT sign on Dean, then go through the Marxists, then put the Nazis on the Left, then put religion on the left, then put petty thieves and pickpockets on the Left, then abusers of spouses, then whoever we can drag into the equation. We just got side-tracked in the earlier stages.

[SteveG1]

@BrainGlutton

WHAT DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH HOWARD DEAN?

Not a goddam thing. It’s called derailment.

[BrainGlutton]

@tomndebb

Well, if you are looking at the world through N I’s looking glass, it is important that Dean be associated with every evil in the world . . .

That’s what puzzles me. Why is New Iskander so frightened by a figure as moderate as Dean?

[Fear_Itself]

@BrainGlutton

That’s what puzzles me. Why is New Iskander so frightened by a figure as moderate as Dean?

Because in NI’s world, anyone to the left of Anne Coulter is a socialist.

[New_Iskander]

@tomndebb

No, I am not “absolutely wrong.”

None of those points can be considered “left wing” by any educated reader. All of them are clearly right-wing (or opposed to left-wing) in nature.

Prove it.

Show me a cite for any Right wing party advocating such things.

[New_Iskander]

@BrainGlutton

That’s what puzzles me. Why is New Iskander so frightened by a figure as moderate as Dean?

I’m not frightened of anybody.

I repeat one more time:

I opened this thread because to placate people. Particularly, Dean supporting people. Look at the thread title; it states, 'Placating Deaniacs.’

I was prepared to sit back, educate myself about Dr. Dean and let the bygones go. But nobody wants to talk about Dr. Dean (except you). All people want to talk about is ME!

[New_Iskander]

@Fear Itself

Because in NI’s world, anyone to the left of Anne Coulter is a socialist.

And in your world, anybody to the right of Communist Party is a conservative.

So there.

[Fear_Itself]

@New Iskander

And in your world, anybody to the right of Communist Party is a conservative.

Actually, I quite like John McCain. Name one Democratic politician you can say the same about.

[Fear_Itself]

Extra credit if it is not Zell Miller.

[Scott_Plaid]

@New Iskander

<snip> Look at the thread title; it states, 'Placating Deaniacs.’

Translation: I hate people who support Dean. I think they are maniacs. Why? Because of the fact that I have a pathological need to demonize whoever is in charge of the party I define myself as being opposed to. What do you mean I “What harm has he done?” He is the opposition. It is my job to hate him, without case or justification.

P.S. You are the side that need placating, not me.