Placing coins on the Brides nipples wedding custom

My fiancee and I recently attended a bridal shower at a Creole (from New Orleans) co-worker’s home. While I was at the car loading gifts the hostess had my fiancee place quarters on her nipples. Now I know why coins are placed on the eyes of the deceased, in order to pay the ferryman, an old pagan custom still held dear by some catholics, but I am at a loss to explain this custom. I assume it is a fertility practice, lost on us since we are both 50, having raised our kids and are both surgically fixed. The hostess refused to say. Is it strictly a black New Orleans voo doo thing? Is my fiancee going to turn into my zombie sex slave or something (keeping my fingers crossed).

Keith Patton

Houston, Texas

I dunno, but jeez… I never get invited to the right parties.

I swear that I have never in my life heard of this one. If it’s for real, maybe it was intended to make the bride seem not just as …ummm… perky?
Incidentally, I have a suspicion that the origin of the “coins on the eyes” thing wasn’t to give the Dead the toll for Charon (in some Greek sources the obol for the crossing was placed in the mouth), but because after death the eyelids get sort of translucent, so that the iris and pupil become visible through the eyelids. You can easily get the idea that the dead person is staring at you.

Hmmmm. Maybe the coins-on-the-nipples thing isn’t all that different, after all.

I thought it was to keep the eyelids from opening up.

Wait- who got the quarters on her nipples- your fiancee, the hostess, or the bride-to-be? And how was this achieved- momentarily placing them on her breasts but outside of her clothing; placing them inside her bra and covering the nipple, or was the subject laying down and quarters were somehow placed atop the nipple? I’m a bit confused here.

I was at a wedding reception last summer in Cleveland (so, the bride was now a wife) and there was some secret meeting of all married women outside. The result of the meeting was a photograph of all the married women (the newly married one at the center) with their tops off. I was told this was a custom.

Never heard of that one before. Wonder if this is related?

Maintains a demure profile! :wink:

How perfectly ghoulish and creepy, if one is predisposed to that mindset. The entertainment industry caters to that mindset. It made me recall George Harrison singing “Taxman.”

Back to the OP, which is a question of life, not death. Women’s breasts symbolize life. Speaking of survivals from ancient paganism, see The Powers of Tamil Women ed. by Susan S. Wadley and The Poems of Ancient Tamil: Their Milieu and their Sanskrit Counterparts by George L. Hart III. The religion of ancient Dravidian-speaking peoples was not of a transcendent deity, but based on the forces of nature. Ancient Dravidians believed that the divine power in nature, called ananku, was stronger in certain places, and it was strongest of all in women’s bodies, most of all in their breasts. This consciousness has continued into the modern era as examples from modern Tamil poetry would show.

Whether this concept of female power in nature and particularly localized in women’s breasts is found in other cultures, I don’t know but would be interested in knowing. One extension of the ancient Dravidian concept of power as feminine is the Sanskrit term shakti meaning the supreme feminine power of the universe, accessed in Tantric yoga via women. Ananku and Shakti are also used as goddess names. The persistence of the tradition of Shaktism within the Hindu world comes from the pre-Hindu worship of the Goddess or of a feminine power in nature. This kind of devotion has proven to be remarkably stable over time and across changes of civilizations.

The localization of the power of life in women’s breasts, which I found studying ancient Tamil, could explain the symbolism in the Creole ritual you noticed, if their culture used that concept. Touching money to the source of life energy ritually invokes prosperity for the married couple’s life.

Are they related? I have read speculation by an Afrocentric author, Clyde-Ahmad Winters, that Dravidian and African civilizations are ethnically, linguistically, and culturally related. I do not know enough about African ethnology and culture to be able to evaluate this claim. But I do know that linguistically Dravidian has a somewhat dodgy hypothetical connection, via the Nostratic macrofamily, to the Afro-Asiatic language family, which includes languages spoken by dark-skinned peoples in Africa including Hausa, Somali, Oromo, Tigriña. I do not know exactly which African languages Dr. Winters connects linguistically with Dravidian in his paper “The genetic unity of Dravidian and African languages and culture.” There are four language families indigenous to Africa: Afro-Asiatic, Khoisan, Niger-Congo, and Nilo-Saharan. They are not known to be related to one another. I have never heard of any Dravidian linguistic connections to either Niger-Congo or Nilo-Saharan, apart from perhaps the work of Dr. Winters.

The global genetic studies of Luigi Cavalli-Sforza have shown distinct correlations between language families on a large scale and genetic populations. For example, not only are the Khoisan languages more unlike the world’s other languages than any other group, genetically the Khoisan speakers are more unlike the rest of the world’s population than any other group. The Urheimat of Khoisan appears to be the lake region of East Africa. The presence of two Khoisan languages there, Hadza and Sandawe, is a survival of the earliest presence. Evidently Khoisan speakers were the first population to branch off from proto-humanity. Although most Khoisan languages today have survived in Southern Africa, their origin in East Africa probably dates to the origin of human language itself. Anyway, if I had more time, I would check the results of Cavalli-Sforza’s work to see if there’s any genetic proximity between Dravidian and other African language families. The Nostraticists felt somewhat vindicated by the data.

None of this adds up to more than speculation about a possible Dravidian explanation for a possibly African custom. We haven’t even established for sure whether the coins on the nipples custom is of African origin.

Heh, heh, I was sent to the car, the hostess gave my fiancee two quarters, she had my fiancee place them on her nipples inside her bra. Well probably more correctly, placed them on her aureoles.

Johanna thought of George singing “Taxman” (My advice for those who die/Declare the pennies on your eyes.)

The song that came to my mind was “Shake Your Money Maker.” :wink:

I never heard of this either.

Who got to see the picture? Who got copies? Why don’t I get invited to weddings like this?

A variation on this custom occurs whenever I go to a sit-down wedding reception with disposable cameras placed on the tables for the guests to document the party with. I quietly invite guests to a discrete location for, um, intimate but faceless portaiture. The lucky couple will find some “surprise” pictures sprinkled in amongst the usual smiling mugs drinking champagne.

Cite?

My email is in my profile.

Um, cite? No offense, but this sounds a lot like the Marija Gimbutas-inspired habit of assigning gynocentric religion to pre-Indo-European people in Europe. Once again, a women-centered culture is marginalized by invading Indo-Europeans, right?

I don’t normally doubt what you say, but this really sounds like anthropology filtered through the lens of feminist ideology.

Again, cite? I don’t know a ton about Hinduism, but within the religion (or rather group of religions) there’s a long history of “cults” (not in the Flavor-Aid sense, obviously) around various Hindu gods and goddesses; they’ve tended to rise and fall over time. Why is modern Shaktiism in particular supposed to be evidence of ancient women-centered beliefs? Is Vaishnavism therefore evidence of ancient cultures who revered the masculine force as the essential nature of the universe?

But you do know enough linguistics to examine that part of the claim. No accepted connection exists between any of the four main language families and Dravidian; in fact, while various ideas have been posited, none are considered to be particularly likely. And any of the various macrofamily theories involving Dravidian and any of the African languages also involve Indo-European, so you could then apply exactly the same reasoning to the PIE culture and look for the same cultural symbols to exist amongst white Europeans.

Come on, Johanna. You’re smart. I’ve seen it in your other posts. You’re way too smart to believe in this kind of mush-minded “scholarship”. You are probably more familiar with the literature on historical linguistics than I am, so you know exactly how little reason there is to believe this kind of thing.

I know you practice witchcraft and I have no problem with that. But you shouldn’t present speculations filtered through your own feminist and religious beliefs as facts; as a matter of fact, you should look a lot more critically at these kinds of claims. This is nonsense; you know that. You’re an incredibly smart woman. It’s a shame to sacrifice that intelligence on the altar of New Agey foolishness.

ummm…I can snatch a stack of quarters off of my own elbow…

Any of the four main African language families, that is.

But can you elbow a stack of quarters off your sn…never mind.

I know a dancer who let’s guys do this, but she insists on crisp $100 bills.

Any relation?

That was an epidose of “King of Queens”.

Perhaps she just … really likes … your fiance?

I’m trying to imagine a scenario in which I invite someone to reach inside my bra and do something to my nipples. No problem. :wink:
But only if I’m pretty into him, and neither of us are engaged to marry someone else within the immediate future.

That’s just me, though.