It’s become a cliche. The bit with men, or women, looking at a pair of tits and debating over whether or not they’re fake. Or insulting someone by saying they’re filled with silicone.
Why should anyone care whether someone’s face is real or not? Why do people assume it’s a self-esteem issue? And why is it that we condemn someone for beauty obtained with a checkbook, as opposed to women who became that way through luck?
If someone wants to look “better” that’s their own damn business. What bothers me the most, are the people who condemn others for not looking at inner beauty, then turn around and condemn someone for getting plastic surgeory or liposuction. If inner beauty is what counts, then getting your face changed should be rather along the lines of getting a tattoo, yes?
Everyone tries to make themselves look better, so why the self-righteousness? And lemme tell you, if they were offering liposuction for ten bucks a pop, people would be beating down the doors to get in.
Well, Freaky, you’ve gotta understand that the group advocating “It’s all about inner beauty” probably isn’t the same group that criticizes plastic surgery. But on the other hand, maybe it is. ::shrug::
Anyway, I personally find nothing wrong with cosmetic surgery… face lifts, tummy tucks, breast implants/reductions… as long as said cosmetic surgery actually makes the recipient look good.
Too much surgery leaves a lot of scar tissue, a constantly-glazed appearance, or even just completely unnatural skin texture. For example, several weeks ago, there was a news report about a woman who wanted to make herself look like a cat… dozens of surgeries had left her nose flattened and sharply tapered, the skin about her eyes looking painfully stretched, her lips looking like two dead slugs glued onto her chin… you get the idea.
Then there’s the classic example of Michael Jackson…
I personally don’t see plastic surgery is a sign of a healthy society. (Raving Femminist Mode) My personal belief is that women are taught to hate their bodies, and a woman that hates her body can never have true, good, meaningful sex. This body-hatred has led to A. Bad sex for lots of women (and the resulting disenfrichisment) and B. Self-worth (in the form of beauty) as a commodity. I see that as a bad thing.
I see women that fall into that, by having plastic surgery, as contributing to the greater harm of all women.
I agree with Even that plastic surgery is too often seen as the Holy Grail of self worth. Ideally (in my mind), it’d be used to fix blemishes or minor bodily annoyances, not relied upon for a “If only I was prettier…” crutch.
I see no reason, however, why plastic surgery, when used appropriately, shouldn’t be as acceptable as makeup or clothing. All three are used for aesthetic improvement of appearances… and appearances, while nowhere near the most important thing in the world, are important enough to make a difference, either to yourself or to other people.
Don’t know if last night’s program on the Discovery channel sparked off this thread but here are my thoughts on the subject…
Nothing wrong with this kind of practice as far as I can see. It’s no worse than tatoo-ing, piercing, or whatever other bodily decorations people choose for themselves. In some cases it certainly speaks strongly about a person’s self esteem problem. In others it simply goes towards vanity. But so do the clothes we wear, the cars we drive, the houses we buy and the clubs we join. It’s all a part of joining this or that group. It’s being able to identify with some popular or marginal segment of society. It’s all about acceptance.
In a minority of the cases, the surgery is certainly justifyable because it will make life easier in some way for the person electing to undergo the change. I.E. A short statured woman with extremely large breast may find that she can function better socially, emotionally and physically if her DD breast were reduced to a C cup size. Certainly there are few who would argue with that. Converesely, an A cup woman who has worked hard at staying fit and looking attractive is generally derrided for electing to augment her breast size to that same C cup. Why? Is the vanity of the first woman somehow more justifyable than the vanity of the second?
I think that this is one area in which the hard core feminist movement has done more harm than good for women in general.
In a majority of the cases, however, this is simply a method of enhancing desireable attributes or concealing those which are not. Anyone who tells you that they don’t care about how they look is simply not being honest or has given up on him/her self. We all do things to help us be accepted amongst our peers. We do it to varying degrees but we still do it. This being the case, it’s hardly surprising that arbitrary lines begin to be drawn about what’s excessive vanity and what is not. But at the end of the day, we all must admit that being accepted and being viewed as desireable are extremely compelling reasons for undergoing plastic surgery.
It does appear to be hypocritical of women to criticize other women for using surgery as a means of enhancement. After all most women do use enhancement through make up, hair and adornments like clothes and jewery in order to improve their appearance. What I believe brings about resentment is often the attitude of women who go to these lengths. We aren’t talking about a women with a grotesquely huge nose that just wants to look like everyone else, or a petite women with triple Ds that has a daily backache. Most women seem to disdain the Pamela Andersons of this society. This no talent woman had legs like a chicken, but because her breasts were enhanced way beyond their normal capacity she becomes a big star. (And I’ve always suspected she had collagen injections in her lips too) Albeit for only a farting spell but an object of male desire and a famous person none the less. Now she wants to be taken seriously and has them removed, sorry but somehow I think she has a long road ahead of her to acheiving that goal. Some normal women take issue with this, I don’t.
As for our plastic society…We created it. I’m not sure how but we did. It isn’t really that strange for women or men for that matter to go to great and unusual lengths to adhere to rigid fashion mandates. Throughout history we have tortured and mutilated our bodies in an attempt to make ourselves more attractive. How is that any different now?
Being mundane, breast implants do feel very different (sex appeal is not just about looks. OTher senses are involved here.) The surgery can also deaden nerve endings in the nipples, which doesn’t seem worth it.
But as for fixing physical defects, it is like anything else. You need to stay grounded. it is one thing to enjoy looking good. It is quite another if all you have is your looks (is my shallow, fake tit first wife listening?)
Just as an FYI (it was news to me as well) the doc on Discovery doing the breast augmentation/reduction surgery also said that some women experience an enhancement of sensation in their nipples after surgery.
That WOULD make the surgery somewhat worth it. No?
Disclaimer: He said he could not predict if a patient would gain or loose feeling in her nipples prior to surgery but either was possible. He also did not mention the numbers of patients who experienced a net change for better or worse.
I personally see nothing wrong with most plastic surgery. I have even comtemplated it, though now I don’t know if I will do it (I was considering having my boobs “put back where they belong” if they had travelled too far after breastfeeding, but now I may not )
What horrifies me is the idea that the most asked-for high school graduation present among teenage girls is, yes, plastic surgery. And we aren’t talking nose jobs or breast REDUCTION here, either. Sure, I wasn’t the biggest fan of my body in high school, but it wasn’t done yet!!! I was really skinny before, now I have beautiful curves.
Women also need to think ahead about these things. Will breast implants interfere with breastfeeding later? I know that breast reduction can. Two friends who had much-needed reductions in their twenties can now only produce enough breastmilk for 1-2 feedings a day, which can impact the amount of immunities she can pass to the baby.
I want to look great, who honestly doesn’t? Given the opportunity & resources, I might do a thing or two (liposuction leaps to mind). I am not afraid of excersise or a healthy diet, I just might want a jump-start. Oh listen to me, what a product of the “magic pill” school! I will say that the more I have grown to like & love myself, the happier I am with how I look. Was I warped as a young girl by our “plastic society.” Maybe, but I think I grew out of it before it was too late (no radical surgery or eating disorders- not that I’m really sane or anything).
I care about how I look, and that is not a bad thing. I wear make-up, clothes that I deem stylish (yes, even clothes that I deem sexy), shave my les and cut my hair stylishly. It’s okay to have fun altering your appearance. It becomes a pathology, however, when one NEEDS to alter one’s appearance.
Plastic Surgery is NOT the same as make-up and clothing. It is expensive, painful and dangerous. It is not about changeing one’s appearance, it is about altering the physical structure of the body. When a healthy body is seen as anything but beautiful, we have a problem. When a healthy body is seen as something that has to be fixed, we have a problem. When a beautiful body is seen as something that has to be bought, we have a problem.
The raving femminism comes into play, because plastic surgery is, for the most part, done on females. Some men get it, but it is not really socially acceptable for them to. Women, however, feel outragous pressure to be young and beautiful. How many positive words can you think of to describe and older woman? And yet older men are “dignified” and “distinguished”. Men can have wrinkles, grey hair and the occasional pot belly. For women, those are somehow a sign of not being good enough. And when one portion of society (which happens to be the portion I belong to) is told to hate their bodies and change them useing painful, expoensive and dangerous means, yes, I see something wrong.
So I will continue to look down on women that get plastic surgery. I will not respect them in the same way that I don’t respect all people that fall prey to vanity (includeding mindless trend followers and their ilk). I will also despise that they are contributeing to attitudes and beleifs that hurt me. They are traitors to their gender, ideed traitors to humanity (okay, getting a bit dramatic there)
And dear Quicksilver, there is a difference between breast reduction, which has positive physical side effects, and breast agmentation, which is usually done entirely out of vanity. If this society was working right, people born with large breasts would never be subject to stares, objectification or harrasment because of that. Getting away from harrasment is not vanity on the part of the woman, it is a wrong on the part of the ones that harrass.
What I don’t understand is why it’s considered more narcissistic (sp?) to drop $5000 on cosmetic surgery than to spend thousands of dollars and thousands of hours in a gym.
Both reshape your body. Both modify its natural appearance. Both are done by the majority of people for purely aesthetic reasons (to be more attractive to women/men), and both are done by some people for more serious reasons.
So why the arbitrary (in my eyes, anyway) distinction? Why is it less acceptable for a woman to want to go from an A cup to a D cup than for a man to want to go from having 12" arms to 20"?
Wow, I for one certainly don’t FEEL like a traitor to my gender, nor am I a trend-happy psycho.
But as a woman with certain rights, one of those rights entitles me to choose what I will or will not do with my body. Period.
And hey, I haven’t had any plastic surgery & probably never will. But if I did choose to, as a well-adjusted, well-educated woman, I would sure as hell resent being catagorized as a brainwashed Barbie doll or traitor to my section of the food chain.
If you don’t like it, don’t do it. But don’t think you can speak for me and my values based on a broad generalization that any woman who seeks to change something about her body is somehow bad or sick.
Nipple piercings almost always lead to more sensitivity. They are cheaper than breat implants, and look better. So no, it’s not worth it.
On the OP.
I’ve know 1 person who got plastic surgery, and should have gotten it. She had a deformed (seriously deformed) nose. She felt much better. I feel much plastic surgery is superfulous. If I can tell someone got it, i find it unatractive. Also, If I can tell someone’s been working out at the gym too much, I don’t find that too attractive either.
I’ve felt implant enhanced breasts and don’t find them nearly as nice as the real thing.
But, at the same time if you can pull it off and still look natural and good, go for it.
So if a woman just wants plastic surgery, rather than NEEDING it, it’s ok?
The orthodox feminist position is insulting to women. In it, the women are dupes who have been brainwashed into striving for something they don’t want. I give women more credit than that.
So, instead of being toadies for men, women now must conform to your viewpoints, as those who don’t are brainwashed dupes? It’s a neat trick - women can’t refute being brainwashed dupes if they see nothing wrong with plastic surgery, because only women who are brainwashed dupes would want plastic surgery. Either they are enlightened (agree with you), or brainwashed dupes, because by definition, if they disagree with you on plastic surgery they are brainwashed. Kind of like the dodge about being an alcoholic: “you’re an alcoholic”…“no I’m not”…“see, your in denial”.
There’s nothing wrong with plastic surgery. If it makes someone feel better, or they just want it for whatever reason (and who is to judge wanting versus the aforementioned needing), so what? You obviously have an idea of how you like to look and you feel it is perfectly fine for you to pursue that idea. Why shouldn’t others be free to look the way they want to?
Jake
I’m not really that bad of a raving feminist. And I really not trying to offend anyone, just make them think. I’m really not trying to tell anyone what to do with their bodies, and I am not really that judgemental. I don’t sit around looking down on people just because they had plastic surgery. But there are a lot of things in the world that bother me. So please, don’t get personally offended. Just a few thoughts I had to throw into the fire…
Once again the gym provides HEALTH benefits, not just cosmetic ones. Trying to be healthy is good. Dieting to be healthy is a lot different than dieting to look skinny. Thats why I never understood things like “Snackwells” that’ll make you skinny, but not healthy. Oh well. I also dont get people that drive around looking for the closest parking spot but pay htousands at the gym. Strange world.
I was a little harsh saying “traitor to your gender”. Its not the women who are screwed up. It is society thats screwed up. Plastic durgery is the symptom. It is society that I am mad at, not the individuals. I just want women to understand, love and have fun with their bodies. We have lived in fear of our own sex to much. Most women describe their sexual organs as “ugly”. I think that is the sign of something terribly wrong…
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