Please change the Pit tagline [New Pit Rules]

[Jeff]

@Starving_Artist

The thing is, this is a business decision, pure and simple. I’m sure it’s very difficult for CL to sell advertising and/or to draw new members from the public at large when there is a forum like the Pit which can be scary and off-putting even to some of our own members.

I would imagine that from CL’s point of view they may not even want their name associated with this place the way it stands now. Further, from their point of view the membership now is likely small potatoes compared to what it would become if they could market it around the country more freely than they can with the albatross of the Pit in place. Thus, I doubt that they are overly concerned with posters who get little out of the other forums and are here primarily because of the Pit, or who would quit the board in the absense of the Pit. In other words, it’s better for their reputation and it holds the promise of recruiting many more members if they tone down or get rid of the Pit than if they allow it to continue as always.

All the TMI threads in IMHO and MPSIMS would be much more offensive to a prospective audience than swearing in the Pit.

This is 100% about moderators with hurt feewings. All the rest is just a smoke screen.

[wring]

@Arnold_Winkelried

Don’t forget the existing posters who have been here for years and don’t engage in flamefests in the Pit. Surely they count too?

I’m one of them. And I think the new rules suck. Do I count?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Brad_the_Impaler

I didn’t realize anyone was forcing them to take part. Please point out where they are required to read and post in those flames, because I was previously unaware of such a rule.

I’m saying that my prediction is that a large portion of the customer base will get along just fine with these new rules. I realize some people will not like these new rules and might even stop posting here. This is not the first storm that I’ve witnessed at the SDMB. The prognosis that this rule will be the final nail in the coffin of the SDMB is premature.

[Mtgman]

@Arnold_Winkelried

the “I’m at work” analogy is supposed to show that most people live a great part of their day in an environment where they can’t flame other posters and they don’t run amuck and leave in a torrent of abuse one day when they can’t take it anymore. And before you bring up the issue “they stay there because they get paid to”, I also mentioned some other situations where people a) are not paid for their presence, and b) are not expected to be throwing around “motherfucker” and “cunt” when someone says something that they disagree with.

I live most of my life in those environments, and indeed the vast majority of the SDMB is one. But, given the vast range of the human experience, it’s inevitable there will be places where things are a bit more raw. A person can live their entire lives without ever going to those places or seeing that side of life. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. In fact I’d probably feel pity for the person who never leaves their comfortable suburban life and professional workplace to visit the slums and socialize with people whose lives have been so vastly different from their own. Even though, intellectually, I’m most comfortable and fit in best in those surroundings, it does me no service to avoid facing the reality of how the others live. As long as the human experience presents such a broad spectrum, I feel it incumbent upon myself, as a seeker of knowledge and new experiences, to look under those rocks and go to those places.

One of the nice things about the SDMB was how broad it was. I can get great discussion of narrow topics on dozens of message boards. The Bad Astronomy site, tech blogs, politics blogs, medical journals, etc. What the SDMB had was a sort of one-stop-shopping aspect. All the topics one could want, and a raw underbelly. It’s been my primary online venue for a number of years, and the Pit has been a significant part of that. I’ve seen everything from tough love, to shocking hate, and while it hasn’t been pretty, it’s been real.

I think we should keep it real.

Enjoy,
Steven

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Tranquilis

Based upon my observations of the conversations between you and various Members and Charter Members, apparently not.

Was that “you” specifically to me, or directed to the SDMB staff? Just clarifying that I’m not a member of the SDMB staff.
If directed specifically to me, are you referring to the fact that my opinion has not changed even though several people disagree with me? If I read any argument that convinces me that I am mistaken, rest assured that I will post that bit of news forthwith.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@wring

I’m one of them. And I think the new rules suck. Do I count?

Does that mean, should you be able to post your opinion about the new rules? Yes.

[Tranquilis]

@Arnold_Winkelried

Was that “you” specifically to me, or directed to the SDMB staff? Just clarifying that I’m not a member of the SDMB staff.
If directed specifically to me, are you referring to the fact that my opinion has not changed even though several people disagree with me?

Ah… Quite right, and fair enough. It was a general “you” to the authority figures of the SDMB.

However, since I have your attention at the moment, I find that you, the personal you, using that argument in light of the numerous expressed opinions, have apparently discounted their opinions too, in that they disagree, and have used what I believe to be compelling arguments and statements as to the purpose, nature, and utility of the 'Pit, and the effects of the new rules. Despite those statements and arguments, you’ve remained apparently unmoved, and so I conclude that “paid” status matters not at all to your position.

In short, you used a strawman, and that, sir, is unworthy.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Mtgman

I’ve seen everything from tough love, to shocking hate, and while it hasn’t been pretty, it’s been real.

I think we should keep it real.

Just curious: did the lack of other things at the board, like pornography or erotica, make it less real in your eyes? Or is it just the use of hateful terms that is needed for it to give the full human gamut?
[post=10869269]See here[/post]:

Look, we’re not saying you can’t insult other posters. We’re saying that there’s a line (however fuzzy.) “You’re a jerk” is acceptable; “Fuck yourself” is not. “You’re stupid” is fine; “You’re a cunt” is not. It’s a question of insult vs abuse.

[wring]

@Arnold_Winkelried

Does that mean, should you be able to post your opinion about the new rules? Yes.

No, I’m saying that even though I was generally a non participant in the flamefests (at least from the standpoint of actual flaming of folks generally), I believe that the new rules suck and will absolutely change (not for the better) the temper and feel of the place. I know how to behave like I’m in church, when I’m in church. THere’s any number of places available to me in real life and on the net where I have to closely monitor and edit myself. Up til now, it’s been nice to have a place where that wasn’t so necessary. T’aint anymore.

[Jack_Batty]

@Arnold_Winkelried

The question here is “are these new rules such that they will stifle discussion?” I personally think not.

I think you’re wrong.

Discussion is already stifled and the rule isn’t more than a few hours old.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Tranquilis

However, since I have your attention at the moment, I find that you, the personal you, using that argument in light of the numerous expressed opinions, have apparently discounted their opinions too, in that they disagree, and have used what I believe to be compelling arguments and statements as to the purpose, nature, and utility of the 'Pit, and the effects of the new rules. Despite those statements and arguments, you’ve remained apparently unmoved, and so I conclude that “paid” status matters not at all to your position.

In short, you used a strawman, and that, sir, is unworthy.

I don’t see where I used a strawman. Those reasons that seem so compelling to you are less than convincing to me. I’m not posting this just to be start a fight - heaven forbid I should want to start a fight with the Pit lovers! I would hate to see my good name and that of my relatives down to the 7th generation dragged through the mud in that forum. I have stated this in several threads in the past (probably gone in the mist of time.): I always thought that the board would be better without the Pit. I don’t see any arguments in this discussion that I haven’t seen many times in past discussions.

[Revtim]

@Arnold_Winkelried

I posted this in another thread, but I like the sound of my own voice so much that I’ll repeat it here. I for one am perfectly able to disagree with people without calling them assholes or telling them to eat shit. I have no problem with the new Pit rules.

Yeah, that’s called the Great Debates forum, and we already have one of those.

[Arnold_Winkelried]

wring, Jack Batty - and I disagree with both of you. That’s what makes the SDMB great! That we don’t all think alike. Group hug?

[Arnold_Winkelried]

@Revtim

Yeah, that’s called the Great Debates forum, and we already have one of those.

And a fine forum it is! I think many of the Pit threads would do just fine there, and would be better for it once they were stripped of the things that make it unsuitable for GD.

[Loach]

I think it would probably be better for everyone to express their opinions in the thread in which the administration is pretending to listen to our opinions. I’m out of this one.

[Jack_Batty]

@Arnold_Winkelried

wring, Jack Batty - and I disagree with both of you. That’s what makes the SDMB great! That we don’t all think alike. Group hug?

Just don’t grab my ass, or I’ll report you.

[Starving_Artist]

@Jeff

This is 100% about moderators with hurt feewings. All the rest is just a smoke screen.

I don’t agree with this at all. In the first place, the mods knew what they were in for when they signed up for the job. Secondly, if would have been easy enough for Ed to simply make pittings of mods, and/or criticism of them, off limits except for ATMB. In other words, if all he wanted to do was protect the mods and administrators, he could have done so very easily in other ways and without emasculating the Pit in the process.

[Tranquilis]

@Arnold_Winkelried

I don’t see where I used a strawman.

Permit me to enlighten you:

Don’t forget the existing posters who have been here for years and don’t engage in flamefests in the Pit. Surely they count too?

It is abundantly clear that “Paid” status does not, in fact, enter into your position. Therefore, and especially in light of the strong opposition to, and seriously tepid support of, this change from p[aying members, bringing “Paid” status into the argument as a rebuttal is, at the very least, disengenuous, and is, in any practical matter, a strawman.

[CandidGamera]

“We’ll be the judge of what constitutes abuse.”

I’m not a fan of subjective standards that change with the mood of the moderator applying them, the popularity of the poster making the infraction, and the phase of the moon. I barely even use the Pit, and I’m very unhappy with these changes.

[Tranquilis]

@Arnold_Winkelried

And a fine forum it is! I think many of the Pit threads would do just fine there, and would be better for it once they were stripped of the things that make it unsuitable for GD.

In short, and freely translating: “I don’t like the 'Pit, and want it gone.”

It’d have raised a lot less ruckus, IMO, if Ed had simply up and done that. Instead, we’ve been gifted with some maimed hybrid beast, stuck between GD and MPSIMS; Neither fish nor fowl, nor good red meat.