I mean, I get that it would take down any normal presidency, but I don’t understand why people seem to be treating this like a bigger deal than all the other very unusual stuff that has gone on with this administration.
I’m trying very hard not to poison this well, but it seems like there has been some pretty obvious corruption, attempted obstruction of justice, election law violations, emoluments issues, personal enrichment (for example, removing some sanctions from a Chinese company right after the Chinese government makes a loan to the Trump organization), cozying up to dictators, throwing our allies under buses, ignoring congressional subpoenas, ignoring laws such as the requirement to cough up Trump’s tax returns to congress, and probably other stuff I’ve missed. Let’s just say that many norms have been violated, many things that would be lethal or nearly so to other administrations.
What makes this Ukraine/Biden/Trump thing different? Is there any chance it will change the mind of any Trump supporter, either regular supporters or in Congress? Does any Trump supporter here think this is a thing?
[ul]
[li]Congress voted around a quarter-billion dollars in aid to Ukraine, which would use it to fend off Russia.[/li][li]Trump delayed sending that aid for weeks.[/li][li]During that period he apparently told Ukraine several times (“eight” has been mentioned) that he wanted them to come up with a story that could sink the candidacy of his rival Biden, before he’d consider releasing the money.[/li][/ul]
It’s as clear an abuse of power as we’ve seen, so far. Help me win my election or you don’t get the money my legislature promised you is, it would seem, a bridge too far for even some (non-Congressional) Republicans to stomach.
Add to this the overt sabotaging of an established, written policy on how whistle-blowing is to be treated, and you have some genuine danger for Donald.
I pretty much agree with RitterSport. It is quite a huge deal. And it will have no impact whatsoever on what happens to Trump. His approval rating will remain the same, and Republican politicians will continue to cover for him and carry his water.
That’s all.
And I agree with the first part of Sherrerd’s post. Good summary. I just disagree with the last few words.
There is no danger to Trump whatsoever with this latest treasonous action on his part, and not even with the subsequent orders to cover it up. The Trumpsters certainly don’t mind, even if they are aware of it. The politicians are simply concerned with covering it up.
It’s simply “fake news”, it never existed, and it’s just a witch hunt by the evil media (enemy of the people) and the deep state.
At this point, the bar of impeachment is no longer what would have gotten any of the previous 44 presidents impeached. The bar is now set at whatever is so incredibly, obviously egregious that somehow it makes Republicans act on it.
Will this really be it? I don’t think so. I think conservatives are happy to watch Trump sell out America to foreign powers if it triggers the libs.
At some point we are going to have to confront the fact that Republican political strategy is to piss in the campfire and blame the Democrats for the smell. You’re missing the point if you’re asking “how bad of a smell can they possibly stand?”
I just don’t see how it’s any different than all the other stuff that’s been going on. Hopefully it’s OK to call out specific posters in this forum – HurricaneDitka, what’s your take on this situation and Sherrerd’s post? Shodan, I know you’re not a big Trump supporter, but do you think this is an impeachable offense? Any other conservatives or Trump supporters want to weigh in?
Unfortunately, I’m going to have to agree with RitterSport. I don’t want to. I want this to be the final straw, but apparently this camel is indestructible.
I’m betting the Democrats will make some noise on how horrible this all is, and maybe we should start thinking about possibly discussing doing some kind of inquiry on whether impeachment might be an idea. Before they get anywhere (not that they actually would, but before they could if they were going to), Trump will do something else outrageous and this will be forgotten. Just like the 1000 things that would sink any other administration Trump has done before now.
The so-called president of the United States, allegedly while offering aid to a foreign country asks the foriegn country to dig up dirt on an American citizen. If that don’t piss you right the fuck off, then I can’t help you.
I think the first act would be easily deflected and easily dismissed by the right.
It is blocking the whistle blower from Congress that caused a publication like the Wall Street Journal to make this front page news. I believe the WSJ is still owned by Murdoch’s group isn’t it?
I know those that supported Nixon at first dismissed Watergate as a minor incident. How could a break-in be connected to the President?
IIUC one item that makes it different is that the previous “I’m fucked” issues, as Trump said, were issues that took place just before he became president. Of course, his attempts at obstruction came when he was president, but still the focus of Muller was to check if the President committed a crime before becoming president, and Muller ended with such uncertainty about that and what Agent Orange did as president regarding the Russia connections that it could make Schrödinger’s cat spin in his grave or no grave…
And now we have today, were the issue is entirely pertinent as to giving a reason for impeachment: a very likely act of bribery, with other misdemeanors tossed in.
…its not a big deal for Trump supporters. But that’s the point.
Its a big deal for the Democratic leadership, who have held the line that they will not impeach, who are not holding anyone in contempt, who have chosen to not use the full array of powers that they have at their disposal to hold the President and his co-conspirators to account. As Elizabeth Warren argues:
And this from Jamelle Bouie:
The Dems are showing their cards. This is the strategy. Impeachment is off the table no matter what it is Trump does. He could shoot a man on Fifth Avenue and the worst we would get is a sternly written tweet.
Don’t be so absolutist. Impeachment power will still exist, and the constitution will still be enforceable .
Congress can issue the impeachment charges in November 2020. There is no need to do it right now.
Impeachment hearings will become a media circus bigger than the OJ Simpson trial.*
Pelosi may be right to defer it for a while, because starting the impeachment before the election will turn the election itself into a circus.
*(just for fun: imagine if somehow there’s a glove involved, and we get to watch Trump trying it on to fit his wonderful hands.)
Just to point one thing out, only the first two are confirmed. The last (and impeachable) bit is just speculation. Personally I find it highly implausible. That he asked so little.
I mean I would have expected him to ask for much more. Dirt on Biden. And everyother democrat. And ‘Pub he doesn’t like. Increased supply of high quality mail order brides. A Trump tower or three in Kiev. And he would have tweeted all this. That would be Trump.
…I don’t think Jamelle Bouie will hear you. They aren’t a member of these boards.
Of course there is a fucking reason to to it right now. The President has committed multiple impeachable offences. Waiting until the Dems loose the next election makes no fucking sense.
The OJ Simpson trial was a media circus. And that entire media circus could have been avoided by not taking OJ Simpson to trial. Maybe they could have left it a few years to see if OJ Simpson would murder anyone else. And the jury found him not guilty anyway, so why bother arresting him and charging him with murder? The whole circus could have been avoided by pretending that the murders didn’t happen. That’s obviously the best way to deal with this.
You seriously don’t think that the next election is going to be a bat-shit-insane-circus regardless of what the Dems do regarding impeachment? Have you seen whats happened over the last three years?
It seems to me that President Trump was trying to remedy the wrong of Biden using his official position and the threat of withholding aid money to Ukraine to protect his son from an investigation by the Ukranian prosecutor. Sherrerd’s post seems to me slanted to ignore Hunter (and Joe) Biden’s wrongdoing. At least, that’s how it seems to me from a first pass of what’s been released so far.
I’m not sure that’s an accurate representation of the facts, Ditka. Everything I’ve seen has said that VP Biden may have wanted the prosecutor replaced, but he was only one of many from several different countries who were advocating for that move.
There’s nothing in the realm of corruption (or mistreatment of women, for that matter) that Trump supporters would ever care about, at least by the words of his supporters on the Dope. When they’ve listed what would make them turn on Trump, it’s been about guns, taxes, SCOTUS, etc., if my memory serves. It’s never been about corruption. They literally don’t give a shit about corruption, or mistreatment of women, unless it’s from a Democrat.