Ok, I got in the biggest argument with a friend of mine about the Illuminati today. I need some ammo to shoot his theories down. I thought he was nuts that some all-powerful council of freemasons control the world.
Heres the debate…
Do they exist? And if so how powerful are they? Do the Bush boys have anything to do with them? Mods I believe this is the appropriate forum to post this however feel free to move it where you see fit. So what’s the straight dope dopers?
The Master has addressed these issues:
Secrets of the Illuminati: the May Day link
Is the Trilateral Commission the secret organization that runs the world?
With a few additional comments:
Is the dollar bill’s eye-on-a-pyramid the symbol of a secret society?
And always remember that the backbone of this country has always been people like Henry Fnord and Jerry Fnord and Bob Fnord.
Tell your friend to chew on this: Many of the Founding Fathers of the USA were Freemasons (or were at least familiar with Freemasonry) and this country was founded on many of the ideals espoused by Freemasonry, which means everything we enjoy today is thanks to Freemasonry. If they’re really some kind of evil cabal, that means we’re evil too!!!
Here’s the biggest piece of evidence against the theories of the Illuminati: If they’re secretly “controlling” everything, they’re doing a downright terrible job of it.
(At least, that’s what we want you to think…)
It’s that secret society called the VFW that really runs things. I know some guys who seem to spend an awful lot of time at the local hall. Just what the heck are those guys plotting over their cheap beer and peanuts, anyway?
Actually, I don’t personally believe in a secret world government by the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission, or TPC (see the The President’s Analyst for an explanation), but I can certainly understand how these theories get started. Many people seem to have enormous difficulty accepting the idea that randomness exists, and that unpredictable results may arise from the random interactions of two or more events, particularly where the social activities of large populations are concerned.
In addition, there has long been a certain fondness among (principally male) members of the political or economic elite to create clubs or societies of their own, some philanthropic and some not, and some with various trappings of spirituatlity or paganism. Since membership tends to be through recommendation by one’s peers, and the organizations avoid publicity for their activities, it is easy to jump to the conclusion that these groups are meeting for the purpose of creating or influencing political or economic policies through unconventional channels.
OTOH, clubs are by definition collections of people with similar, specialized interests, and people are likely to discuss political or economic policies within the club setting, just as they would elsewhere. The question is, where is the line between a club and a cabal? Cabals can certainly exist outside of a club setting; consider the Politburo of the Soviet Union in the 1930’s-1970’s: a secret society if there ever was one.
Freemasonry, with its long history and avoidance of publicity, is the usual suspect. The organization is little understood by the public and its reputation cannot be bolstered by scandals such as the famous Propaganda 2 conspiracy in Italy some years back. The P2 scandal, however appears to have been more a case of a Masonic lodge being used as a cover for pre-existing activities than something inherent in Masonry.
In the USA, much has been made of the Bush family’s ties to the secret Order of Skull and Bones at Yale University. Again, it is hard to draw the line between club activities and undue political influence, but there is no reason to believe that Skull and Bones itself has anything important to do with who gets elected, and what policies are adopted, in our country.
Frankly, if one wants to find secret societies that may have an undue political influence in this or any other country, they need look no further than the military and intelligence organizations, and this has been true since at least the Middle Ages.
Thats the exact point I was trying to drill into his thick skull.
I would never have gotten this before reading the links LMAO
Good points everyone, I may be able to bring my friend back to reality yet…
I don’t have a strong opinion either way, but one thing I do know: one of my longtime best friends’ father worked for the US gummint for 30 years. He didn’t work “for” the government per se, he owned a computer business that the government hired. The top levels of government.
And this is what he always told us: the people who are really running things are people you have never heard of, and you never will. He was also of the opinion that these people were much more competent than the people we DO know about.
But hey, who knows…
stoid
Well, hey, that doesn’t sound too far fetched, Stoid-look at all the crap the CIA has pulled, and the National Security Council and all that bullshit.
I definitely believe there are many things we don’t know about, and tons of shady things going on. But every time I try to imagine the logistics of ‘ruling’ the world, my head explodes. It’s simply not possible.
OK. First, I don’t believe that there are any master plans, and certainly no groups that are capable of carrying them out.
However, there have certainly been influential figures in the last 200 years who have been Freemasons, and whose beliefs have influenced our society.
Our Founding Fathers have already been mentioned. Another is W.A. Mozart. A really fascinating book titled “The Magic Flute Unveiled: Esoteric Symbolism in Mozart’s Masonic Opera - An Interpretation of the Libretto and the Music” by Jacques Chailley (translated by Joscelyn Godwin) came out in 1971. In it, Chailley presents evidence that the entire libretto was fashioned according to Masonic ritual.
I wonder what else is out there that seems incomprehensible, but is secretly coded messages for fellow Masons.
Maybe a question for Cafe Society?
The Illuminati really rule the world and when we complete the final takeover in 23 years, all you doubters will be fed to the Loch Ness Monster.
Your fnord friend
The Peyote Coyote
Secret Master of the Servants of Cthulhu
Moreover, these are the exact same people who have conspired to keep car mileage down by keeping the super gas efficiency pill off the market - you know, the one that you add to your tank and get 200 miles per gallon.
I am only able to reveal this to you, because the double layer of tinfoil inside my baseball cap repels most of the brainwashing x-rays.
Guinastasia wrote:
I would, except it’s classified.
<hijack> Does anyone play the card game Illuminati? Its one of my favorite games and relates entirely to this topic. You are the leader of an illuminatic orginization and must destroy all other would be world controllers and take the whole place for your self. The game is awesome, it has so much political humor (although its 1990s politics). They have a card talking smack about every organization on the planet. The perfect game for the smart, handsome, insanely twisted, straight doper in you. [url=“http://www.sjgames.com/inwo/”]Hers their site**. </hijack>
ps- Omg that sounds like an infomertial. :wally
On the history of Freemasonry, suggest to your friend that he/she reads David Stevenson, The Origins of Freemasonry: Scotland’s century, 1590-1710 (Cambridge University Press, 1988) and J. M. Roberts, The Mythology of the Secret Societies (1972), both of which are sane, sensible, thoroughly researched monographs which suggest that Freemasonry was always much more mundane than he/she probably imagines.
The Masonic allusions in The Magic Flute have always been known about - most of them are pretty obvious and would have been recognised as such by the original audiences.
The BoySrouts attack the Masons with support from the Birchers and the International Communist Conspiracy… 
:snort:
Pinks, the lot of you.
My grandfather was a Freemason. I figured it was a good way to get away from my grandmother and hang out with the boys without having to tell her anything about what they did.
Regarding stoid’s comment concerning people whom you’ve never heard of running things, realize that the huge government bureaucracies remain, no matter who gets elected or appointed every 4 years or so. This is not evil - just how it is.
I don’t believe it’s particularly far fetched that these organizations aspire to total power, but I don’t know if they can manage an organization of elites on the global scale. I would think that all the competition to be the head honcho of the Illumanati would be so fierce they would never have a stable organization. Secret governments may exist in individual countries, but not a one-world government.