Where in my post did you read said that the only happiness in life was rearing children? It has been my experience that raising my children has provided me much more enjoyment than my new furniture or my trip to Europe.
Adding to the population is not a requirement, thank God, by any means. Because the originally quoted statement contained mostly self serving pleasures coupled with child raising negatives, my only conclusion was short sighted selfishness.
If you don’t want kids, don’t have them. If your main source of fullfillment leans to the materialistic, so be it. If the idea of a life long commitment to anyone other than yourself is frightening, then go buy a new couch.
I don’t think the parents are “victimizing” us. Being damned inconsiderate? Yes. It’s not an everyday occurance that we have to change our plans, but its often enough to be very annoying. I’m not so hot and bothered by it that I’m going to quit a very good-paying job over it, but I do think its unfair. Hubby is in a field he loves, and would never leave it. We both have adressed this with our superiors and recieved shrugs in response. And if I can’t bitch on the SDMB, where can I?
Considering I work with only two other people, have replied to their queries that I have no children and then suddenly I do— they might be a little suspicious. I suppose I could tape a pillow to my stomach and fake a pregnancy . . . But then they’d want to see baby pictures . . . ugh. Too much work.
This reminds me of the Christians who tell us that we might THINK we’re happy, but we’ll never know TRUE HAPPINESS until we’ve given ourselves to JESUS!
I find the practice of medicine to be very fulfilling. I might say that true fulfillment comes from knowing that you’ve saved someone’s life, or that you’ve made someone’s life worth living. I could say that you’re selfish for not wanting to go through med school and spend your life doing the same thing. But I don’t. There are plenty of worthwhile things to do, and plenty of places to find fulfillment.
You didn’t say it outright, but it was implicit. Maybe this was just the way I read it, but others seem to have interpreted it that way, too.
If your greatest joy is your children, then great for you. Myself, I picture myself as a father, and I shudder. Each to his or her own. But you can’t judge someone for being selfish for not having the same life priorities that you do.
Is Lissa being selfish? Am I? Sure, why not? But so what? What’s wrong with living your life in a way that makes you happy?
You seem very fixated with personal benefits: how much money, how many trips, how much paid leave, etc. That is cerainly your right. I wish you all th ejoy you can find in such things. I see no reason, however, that society has an interest in sponsoring your quest for personal comforts. I do see, as Tom so nicely expressed, that society has an interest in providing for well-educated and well-adjusted future generations.
The taxes and vacations that you rail against are designed to foster this societal interest. They are not denied to you. If you reproduce, you will gain these “benefits” too.
I certainly agree that nobody should presume to criticize your choices in this matter. It is your life; enjoy it as you will. However, I see no reason for you to receive additional assistance in finding that enjoyment. As to the office work assignments, that is an issue between you and your respective employers. If you like the job too much to make an issue of it, then that, too, is your choice.
BTW, do you also object to women collecting social security based upon the contributions of their husbands?
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I could say that you’re selfish for not wanting to go through med school and spend your life doing the same thing. But I don’t.
This a good point…accepting the challenges of a career in medicine and raising children can be equally hard. The harder the challenge, the bigger the fulfillment. Kids are a major challenge. There is no challenge in deciding which restaurant you’ll be dining out at.
My TRUE FULFILLMENT line is being misinterpreted to mean the ONLY FULFILLMENT. Perhaps an IMHO needed to be added for clarity.
I am about to pay a LOT of money to get my wife pregnant. I can’t understand wanting to have a life without creating a family. I just can’t bear to think of bing 55 and not having any children or grandchildren.
But hey, if you want to take the chance that you will be happier without, more power to you. Too many people have kids for the wrong reasons.
I do have to agree though that the employees of mine with kids are not always at work on time and they have to take a lot of time off. But then, their personal life is pretty hectic.
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Is Lissa being selfish? Am I? Sure, why not? But so what? What’s wrong with living your life in a way that makes you happy?
Another good point. However, I strongly feel that I was given the greatest gift…life. To not give this gift to someone else (son or daughter) is, to me, an act of selfishness.
I’m not asking for additional assistance. I’m simply asking that another person’s choices not interfere with my own. Simple as that.
I know I must be coming across as a shallow, selfish bitch, but I really don’t mean it that way. My husband and I have made the choice to remain childless and don’t like to be penalized for it by having to take up the slack for others who have made different choices. My OP was a comment on the people who do not respect our lifestyle as being as important as what they’re doing and take advantage of us accordingly.
I’m not “very fixated” on money or trips. I’d rather read a good book than go out most of the time, anyway. The reason for my OP was the fact that my 4th of July weekend plans were shitcanned because a co-worker’s son had a baseball game and I couldn’t leave. I resent putting my life on hold and being assigned to do so arbitrarily as if I have nothing better to do.
All I want is some consideration. I realize that children need social interraction with their parents and their support, but I would like the same option. If I would like to spend some quality time with my husband, why is that less important? I can’t just take leave to do that the same way I could if I were spending the day with my son or daughter.
I’m not asking for additional assistance. I’m simply asking that another person’s choices not interfere with my own. Simple as that.
I know I must be coming across as a shallow, selfish bitch, but I really don’t mean it that way. My husband and I have made the choice to remain childless and don’t like to be penalized for it by having to take up the slack for others who have made different choices. My OP was a comment on the people who do not respect our lifestyle as being as important as what they’re doing and take advantage of us accordingly.
I’m not “very fixated” on money or trips. I’d rather read a good book than go out most of the time, anyway. The reason for my OP was the fact that my 4th of July weekend plans were shitcanned because a co-worker’s son had a baseball game and I couldn’t leave. I resent putting my life on hold and being assigned to do so arbitrarily as if I have nothing better to do.
All I want is some consideration. I realize that children need social interraction with their parents and their support, but I would like the same option. If I would like to spend some quality time with my husband, why is that less important? I can’t just take leave to do that the same way I could if I were spending the day with my son or daughter.
About the SS for widows . . . why would I disagree?
Couple of perhaps disjointed thoughts/observations.
No, kids aren’t the only source of happiness. But being a parent is unlike any other experience I am aware of. Figure the responsibility, stress, and reward of having a dog, and multiply it by a couple of million or so. And as someone who believes I only have this one limited existence, I want to try to experience as much as I can. Had the kids while relatively young - plan on doing the dining and dancing part when still relatively healthy in my 50s on up.
Re: work, I agree with the discussions of the need to make chjoices and prioritize. I often think people go overboard, wanting both parents to see every inning of t-ball for example. (Can’t imagine who watches those years of videotape.)
On the issue of leave, at my workplace I question why extended periods of leave do not count against a person’s seniority on issues such as promotions. For example, a man and a woman start on the same day. In the 1st 5 years, the woman takes 2 - 6 month periods of leave without pay for childbirth. If a promotion comes up after 5 years, I say the guy is clearly more senior. He has 5 years on the job, instead of her 4. But that is not the policy. As was mentioned, however, that is rather low on the list of things I feel strongly pro and con about my job.
And if this issue of missing dinner or the theater is a recurring matter, and if you own a spine between the two of you, you will not simply let it go wuth a supervisor’s shrugs. Hey, no problem whining to the MB, but it ain’t gonna get you to Wrestlemania on time.
Based on the fact that she’s married, I’d assume Lissa has made a life-long commitment to her husband, but thanks for playing.
I don’t give a crap about the benefits stuff. (Although I do believe that my time with my wife is as valuable to me as someone else’s time with their kids is to them. Not an issue in my office–we’re all childless.) I just hate being made to feel like a pariah for making an informed choice about having or not having children.
Lissa should also be giving the gift of life. For her not to do so is selfish on her part.
You see giving birth yourself as a moral responsibility. For you not to do so is a selfish act on your part, and Lissa’s decision has no bearing on that. In which case, is your non-breeding actually less selfish? Wouldn’t it be more so?
Not as long as you live in a society that believes in supporting some choices above others it isn’t. If you define “interference” to include family leave and taxes to support schools (both of which you railed against in your OP) then it requires drastically altering our present practices of taxation and governance. Perhaps that is what you wish, but it is really a much broader issue than the “plight of the childless”.
Then have children. Wishing to receive the same benefits without the children is not “the same thing”.
I do not think it is less important to you or your husband or your marriage. However, as a society we have determined that while marriage is important and subsidized (with tax benefits for non-working spouses, access to health care, specialized legal standing, etc.) it is not as important (at the moment – these priorities are by no means static) as the relationship between parents and a child. This value is based upon teh expected return to society, not on the importance of any individual choice.
Why not? I take time off to spend with my wife (we are childless). I recently turned down a job that offered a significant pay raise because I valued the flexibility and vacation policies of my present employer more than the extra cash. If you want respect for your choices, then accept responsibility for them as well. The job market is strong and has been for several years. Many companies offer imaginative benefits packages as an alternative to higher pay. Or, as has been said before, if you feel so strongly make it an issue with your present employer.
You seemed to object to government sponsorship of some lifestyle choices above others. The analogy would be: “Why should those of us who work be forcd to support the widow’s choice to be a housewife?”
Again – let me say that I agree wholeheartedly that choosing not to reproduce is a fine option and should not be criticized. That, however, is a separate issue from the question “should society encourage the development of future generations”.
Unspoken assumption in the OP and most of the responding posts has been that the government sets social policy, “rewarding” people for having children by tax breaks and penalizing the childless for not having children. While any tax system is inherently going to have effects and therefore will affect social policy, my understanding of the intent of our income tax provisions is that you and those you choose to support (or are legally required to support, where that is the case and it is not a choice) are entitled to your necessary living expenses, quasi-tax-free. Not the house and car of your dreams, but sufficient funding set aside to house you and them in a minimally adequate fashion, enough to provide you with minimum transport, etc. If you choose to pay for a $250,000 house when you could live in a $400-a-month apartment, that is your business. The basic family exemptions, deductions, etc. are designed to ensure that you are not taxed on the money you need for necessities. So the government is not “taking money from the OP to reward those with children” – it’s taking money from everyone, but less from those with children, all other things being equal, because the children need the necessities of life too. It might be more appropriate to direct one’s anger at the government taking as much as it does (and what it does with it) than at those who are supporting others and also having to pay taxes.
Nor is the government in some way responsible for the management practices people have complained about. That is something it is worthwhile taking up with management and coworkers, the venue depending on your office “climate.” However, an irenic note to your manager or to all people in the office saying something to the effect that, while you understand the importance to a parent of being able to attend functions related to the children, the burden of keeping things going (overtime, special projects, etc.) has fallen unequally on the childless, who need time with their SO’s and simple R&R time as much as do the parents. A bit of documentation would be useful if the manager route is called for; a summary of same should help with the coworker route. “Can we figure out a way so that all the extra time does not fall on those of us who are childless (or on me as the sole childless employee, if that is the case)?” While the world still has a healthy supply of egocentric jerks, most people will understand the problem if it’s presented assertively rather than argumentatively, and be prepared to work things out for mutual satisfaction.
I think you have a good point in this regard. Of course the idea is that we all benefit even if you’re not childess. Not fair but that’s the justification.
This is not discrimination. Most people choose to have children and this is the companies way of attracting good employees who want children. You are choosing not to take advantage of the companies benefit.
Marc
Although I haven’t seen it stated clearly, I will say that the decision to have a child is just as selfish as the decision NOT to have one. I can’t take it anymore with the “selfish” accusation. If anyone can give me an indisputable UNselfish reason for having a child, I would love to hear it (the only one I can think of is if you’re giving birth to the next son of God). I think that it’s wonderful to make either choice, do what you love, but please don’t criticize those of us who choose not to reproduce. The need to have children so that you’ll have someone to take care of you when you’re older, to use an example that has already been stated, is extremely selfish (the reason why should be evident). I can’t think of one reason or purpose that I’ve ever heard from anyone for having children that wasn’t selfish. I’m not criticizing selfishness itself, we’re all selfish in one way or other, but to look down upon someone for deciding not to have children really bugs me. The same works in reverse. I won’t leave anyone out here, if anything, I try to be diplomatic.
Sorry to sound a bit angry, I don’t plan on having children either. I guess since my kind is in the minority, we sound bitchy, but it’s only because of all of the people in our lives that try to convince us how great it would be to have children or what a mistake we’re making by not having them.
I don’t think most people with children would dispute that they did so (at least partly) for selfish reasons. However, I think most would also argue that the child him/herself is the most important thing. Whatever the reasons for being brought into the world, a child is a person. What other act of creation can compare to that? I spent a lot of childless years with my husband–we were married for 15 years before we were ready to have kids. We travelled, we read, we went to restaurants and movies,we bought stuff, we worked long hours at creative jobs–all the things people without children say they would rather do. It is a complete cliche–but all the other experiences I have had pale in comparision to the experience of having kids. If you knew me 20 years ago you would never expect to hear that from me.
So, I the general consensus for parents is, unless you are Mother Theresa or someone comparable, you are not doing anything as worthwhile as raising a child.
BIG HOWEVER: I do not subscribe to the viewpoint that, therefore, everyone is required to breed. It’s your life. Spend it the way you want to. I personally will not think anything less of you. If I had not been able to conceive, we would have gone on happily with our lives.
Thank you for your answer cher3. I’m not trying to be confrontational at all, I’m the black sheep in my family for not choosing to have children. I have a laundry list a mile long of reasons not to have children that is longer than any list anyone can ever have with reasons to have children. I’ve had years of training to sound like this.
I guess you said something that seems to be indicative of the attitudes of some folks I know with children tend to have:
This attitude sounds to me as if parents feel that they’re doing the world a favor by having children. My point was that those who reproduce are doing a favor to no one but themselves. I also glean (correct me if I’m wrong) from that statement that one’s life isn’t as meaningful unless they have children. I don’t want to be mean, but doesn’t that sound a tad arrogant?
On an unrelated note, I wanted to bring up another recurring theme I have come across with those that decide to have children: It sounds as if people think, “Well, we’ve had our fun in life, done everything there is to do, traveled, eaten at great restaurants, etc. Now, let’s have kids”.- Almost as if it’s just something to do in life to pass the time.
