This seems contradictory. As someone who can not conceive, you seem to be damning me to mediocrity. Can you clarify how the two points above can both be true?
Not at all, I think what Cher is saying is that just because something is worthwhile does not mean that one is compelled to do it.
Similarly, just because you would be good at something is no reason to be compelled to do it.
I would hate to live in a world where I had to do everything that is worthwhile. Hell, when would I ever have time to go fishin’?
I think the OP is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard.
a) the reason society feels the need to give breaks to parents is the same reason they give breaks to old people or handicapped people or poor people. Man is a social animal, and so cares for the weak in all it’s forms, and yes children are weak and require a great deal of care.
b) People who scream discrimination, especially over crap like this make me want to puke. What a sue-happy, gimme-gimme culture we got here.
Oh, and I love the title, “the plight of the Childless.”
Where do you get that? You’ve acknowledged you have more time, money and sanity than those with children; what else do you want?
The plight indeed. Why don’t you whine that society gives money to the poor, and you’re being discriminated against because you have the misfortune of a job.
Just coincidentally, I came upon this take by the Bard himself:
Look in thy glass, and tell the face thou viewest
Now is the time that face should form another;
Whose fresh repair if now thou not renewest,
Thou dost beguile the world, unbless some mother.
For where is she so fair whose unear’d womb
Disdains the tillage of thy husbandry?
Or who is he so fond will be the tomb
Of his self-love, to stop posterity?
Thou art thy mother’s glass, and she in thee
Calls back the lovely April of her prime:
So thou through windows of thine age shalt see,
Despite of wrinkles, this thy golden time.
But if thou live, remember’d not to be,
Die single, and thine image does with thee.
I don’t really agree with him, but he makes his argument beautifully.
Also, note that this points up how having children can be selfish as well. Amazing that it still applies, huh?
Why in the world would anyone try to convince someone who doesn’t want to have children that they really should have children? Parenting is damn hard and should not be entered into unwillingly. I applaud those who know that they don’t want to be parents and make the effort to remain childless.
Choosing to have children or not to – both choices are likely selfish. Why wouldn’t you be selfish about such a monumental and life-changing decision? Does anyone make a parenting choice for unselfish reasons? (Or is it just me?) 
While I have never before heard a 6-week maternity leave referred to as “vacation” time, I think that there is a point in here about vacation in general. The only way that some people can get time off from work in this country is to include a trip to the hospital. Why shouldn’t we have more time away from work to be with spouse, loved ones, or just be alone? It is criminal that in the U.S. it is considered inappropriate and bad for your career that a person would want to take 6 weeks (or even just 2) to engage in fulfilling activities to rejuvinate the body and spirit. Trust me, maternity leave is not “time off” - it is work. Wonderful, exciting work…
As for paying taxes for other people’s kids, I will bring up school taxes. If the kids weren’t in public school, where would they be? Loitering, wandering around unsupervised, maybe commiting crimes? I worked in a school for many years and know that plenty parents would make no effort to educate their kids were it not for mandatory schooling. What does that do to our society? Is it any coincidence that the crime rate for the city that I taught in almost doubled in the hour after school was out?
Please forgive if this is a meandering post. I was taken aback by the term “breeders”. My husband and I have wanted to be parents for a LONG time, but I am unable to have children. We do have a wonderful child through adoption, and we are very greatful to an anonymous couple who chose to remain childless even though they are successful breeders. Anybody want to talk about the expense of adoption??!!
Lissa, your choice not to have children is your own. And if you feel that your co-workers and superiors at work are discriminating against you because you don’t have kids, file suit. No one has the right to discriminate against you because of a perfectly legal lifestyle choice.
Now I must take issue with this:
I’ve given birth three times. Three times, my doctor has said that I should not return to work…for six weeks. It takes approximately that long for female body to just stop hurting after giving birth. Average time for the bleeding to stop is approximately four weeks. I’ve heard that it takes approximately two years for the body to get itself hormonally together after childbirth. So, it’s not a six-week vacation. It’s a six-week sick leave, and it isn’t even close to long enough.
This is life. I went to the snack bar at work today, and the lady in line ahead of me asked for a Coke. She got it. She left, I walked up to the counter and asked for a Coke also. The clerk told me that she’d just sold the last one to the lady ahead of me. Well, what do you know. Someone else’s choice interefered with mine.
Now, drinking a Pepsi didn’t exactly ruin my day. What I’m trying to get across here is just how arrogant that statement sounds.
I’m sorry that you’re getting treated badly at work. I will absolutely agree with you that it is not fair. But you did make the choice to work there. If you don’t like the way you’re being treated, fight it or leave. Couples who do not have children are just as much a family as couples who do have children, IMHO. Tell your boss “No, I cannot change my plans. No, I will not change my plans.” Don’t bend. Don’t waver. If you get penalized for it, fight back, dammit!
(FWIW, I think the fact that single people & married couples without children have to pay higher insurance premiums positively sucks rocks.)
On one hand, I think saying tax breaks for people with children discriminates against the childless is like saying that Medicare discriminates against people who aren’t sick.
On the other hand,
What’s even more selfish, to my mind, is creating another human life just so that YOU can be personally fulfilled. Causing an entire human existence just to make yourself feel better is simply using your child as a means to your end.
Lissa, it’s really up to you and your husband whether you have kids, and anybody who tries to bully you or shame you for your decision is an idiot, plain and simple. Similarly, you have a right to expect equitable treatment at work, relative to the breeders in the office. There’s no reason why their personal lives should mean more work for you.
I have kids, and love 'em. I also have missed baseball and soccer games because I have commitments at work, too. Most of the time, my professional life and my personal life co-exist pretty well, but when they don’t, it’s not fair for me to impose on my co-workers to cover for me. Not unless I’m willing to lighten their load at other times.
To your husband’s co-worker, I’d suggest telling him that since you don’t make demands of HIS personal time, he has no right to make demands of YOURS. And if that doesn’t work, tell him to fuck off, you’re going home.
Omega, sorry that you don’t appreciate it, but I, and other responsible parents, are “doing the world a favor” by attempting to raise quality people to contribute to tomorrow’s society. (Not that I would deny for a moment my personal motivations.)
Of course it is a personal choice. If you don’t want kids, please don’t have them. Enjoy your life. I can’t imagine how much time and $ I’d have without kids. But if you agree not to bitch about your choices, I won’t bitch about mine.
All of you have made some very good points, and now I realize that I was wrong about some things. I still don’t like being dumped on at work, but I’m going to be more tolerant in the future. Not having had any children, Persephone’s explanation of what happens to a woman after childbirth really opened my eyes. (Jeeze, I didn’t realize it was so bad!)
I’m really sorry if I came across as a selfish bitch, and judging from the tone of some of the replies I got, I did, and for that I apologise. It was not my intent.
Bill H . . . I said abosolutely nothing about a lawsuit. I said I didn’t like what was happeneing to me, and I’m definately not sue-happy. Sorry I made you want to puke, bub.
This is difficult for me to express. I think there is a lot of inherent contradictions in the way I feel about having children.
I guess what I was trying to say is that there is nothing more precious than a person. To take an extreme example, suppose you had to choose: Either a great work of art disappears from the world, or a particular person never gets to live his or her life (no, you don’t get to choose which person.) What would you decide?
Parents aren’t automatically more wonderful people for being parents and I don’t feel that any other life choice is “mediocre.” It’s not that black and white. There are many worthwhile ways of spending one’s life. I only used the Mother Teresa example to point out what it would take to do something MORE important than creating a new person. I don’t think changing diapers and reading “Curious George” for the umpteenth time is a more pleasurable activity than going to see a play or (insert your favorite activity here). But I do think my daughter and son are uniquely wonderful creations. If that’s arrogant, well, too bad.
Someone else wondered if having children is just a new way for a couple to pass the time. Well, I can’t speak for everyone, but, for us it was more a stage of evolution in our marriage and family.
Lissa,
Alot of posters have made excellent comments regarding your post, and I won’t rehash any of these issues. But there is one point that seems to have been neglected that I would like to address. This is your comment that in your old age you will be able to afford the finest of nursing homes etc.
From what I have seen of old people, one of the major troubles that they face is loneliness. For many old people, their children and grandchildren are the joy of their lives for precisely this reason - as their contemporary relatives have died or moved away, and as they themselves find it harder to travel about, their children and grandchildren remain close relatives who love them. (Unfortunately not enough, in many cases, but enough to usually have great impact on the lives of their parents/grandchildren). Many childless older people find themselves relying on nieces and nephews as substitute children, in effect availing themselves (to the extent that they can) of the efforts of their “breeder” siblings, whose choice they have made an “educated decision” not to emulate.
When we are young and healthy and the world with all it’s possiblities stands before us, it is easy to casually dismiss our plans for our old age. But in a decision with far reaching consequences as whether or not to have children, it would behoove us to consider very carefully what life will ultimately hold for us.
You have a good point, Izzy, and I’ve thought of that extensively in making my decision not to have children.
I’m not a “lonely” person. I’ve never had a problem with solitude . . . I don’t really need companionship to be happy. As long as I have a supply of good books I’m all set to go. I’m easily entertained.
I used to volunteer for Meals-On-Wheels, delivering the meals to the elderly. I got to know them very well, and I loved a couple of them like adopted grandmas. For some of them, my visit was the high point of their day. A lot of them had children, grandchildren, even great-grandchildren, but they were the lonliest people I have ever met. Several of them hadn’t seen their children (who lived in the same town) for years. Believe me, having children is no guarantee you won’t be lonely.
It’s no guaranty, but it helps. (For that matter financial planning is no guaranty either - I’ve met people who were quite wealthy in their youth, but due to circumstances were reduced to dire poverty in their old age).
In my own family, my grandmother lives in an apartment downstairs from my parents. She is lonely and bored despite this - she ran her own store until she was in her late 80’s, and it took alot out of her when she ultimately had to give it up. But she’d be alot worse off without her children. My other grandmother is constantly traveling the country visiting her 5 children, spending this holiday with this one, next holiday with another. Lately she’s been adding her grandchildren to her itinerary.
But as mentioned, there are no guaranties in life, no matter what we do. We take our best shot and live with the consequenses. Best of luck.
Lissa, I’m glad that what I said helped, and I’m very glad that what we’ve said here has affected your opinion somewhat. That doesn’t happen too often around here!
Oh, and if you ever decide you want kids, gove me a call. I’ll loan you mine for a weekend. Hehehehehehe…
Lissa wrote
Well, I was lying; I didn’t really feel like puking. Sorry for the overly strong words.
Lissa, I respect the apology for some of the comments you said. It takes a lot of guts to admit that you may have been a little bit harsh in your original post. Reading this whole thing over, I have a few comments to make regarding the whole issue.
Being the mother of four, I respect people who choose not to have kids. I see a lot of kids whose parents really don’t care for raising them, and the lack of time and effort they put into it. I believe that if you don’t want to have children, good for you for knowing your own mind. Enough people have kids, so we don’t have to worry about the human race dying out.
I did take some exception to this comment:
Actually, IMHO, it is less important. There is a good reason that our childhood is often referred to as our formative years. Your marriage will suffer if you don’t manage to spend any time together, but missing a dinner here and there probably isn’t quite the same as “mom and dad never show up for anything I do, work is more important”. Really. There are a lot of children that were brought up by workaholics, who felt more like a possession that a valued and loved child. If my dad was always working when I had school plays and stuff, I really think that it would have affected me in quite a negative way. Kids need access to their parents, and parents need to make time for their kids.
Although, as I pointed out earlier, the human race is not in any danger of dying off, realistically, if everyone suddenly stopped having kids (not likely, but follow me on this one), the human race would die out. Reproduction is vital to the survival of humans. It is society’s instinct to protect the children, since they are our future. Therefore, giving certain allowances to those who are raising the young is also imperative. If the work force suddenly died out in 20 years, it would be because people today decided that having children wasn’t important.
Your original post did sound a little unreasonable, at least from my point of view. It indicated that you believe that parenting is not valuable time spent for the good of society, parents should not be able to take time to recover from childbirth, parents should not be able to claim extra non-taxable income because they are providing for the needs of their children, and that your husband needs time with you just as badly as a child needs time with a parent.
We need children. We need future generations. You mentioned choices, but again, without new children, there isn’t a future. We don’t all need to have them, but I do honestly believe that as a society, we should support those who do decide to raise the next generation.
Dilemma: when a childless person complains about being put-upon by people with children, she’s accused of being selfish. When a parent complains about how difficult and expensive parenting is, she’s accused of being a whiner- you made the decision to have kids, didn’t you?
Both sides have good points. Yes, we need kids and we need to raise them well for the good of everyone (though when deciding to have kids, this is rarely considered. People usually have kids just because they want to.) On the other hand, how much should a childless person be expected to sacrifice?
cher:
Two comments. First, bringing a new person into the world may be the most important decision anyone can make, but it isn’t always desirable or good to have children. If it were, we’d all throw away our contraceptives and breed until we wore ourselves out. A woman’s ovaries contain millions of eggs. It’s not possible to turn every one of them into a baby (thank heavens), but that doesn’t mean that a woman who chooses not to have kids has murdered millions of people. Sometimes the best decision regarding kids is to not have any.
Second, the worth of a person’s life is so subjective. In my opinion, it is more worthwhile to remain childless and work to improve the world (maybe by helping some of the many children who are unwanted, unloved, abused and neglected?) than to make babies.
Izzy:
In my experience, very few elderly people receive much attention from their kids. Also, most elderly people fear having to rely on their families: they don’t want to be a “burden”. Many are depressed and angry because their kids never visit. Many require far more care than their kids can reasonably give, resulting in guilt and grief and bad feelings all around.
Looking to another person to fulfill your life and “make you happy” leads to failure, whether that person is a lover or a child. The elderly people I know who are happy and content are those who find happiness and contentment within themselves; some of these happy people are childless and some are not. Some receive regular visits, calls, and support from their kids and some haven’t seen their kids in years. The ones who live only in hope of receiving a visit from the grandkids are the ones who are desperately lonely.
Holly:
I guess our respective experiences have been different. In my community, people are frenquently being called upon to visit, as a charity, such-and-such old person, who has no children and no one to visit them in their nursing home. Even old people who don’t “live only in hope of receiving a visit from the grandkids” seem, from my observations, to find them a source of great joy. And who knows if we may one day be desperately lonely ourselves. This is frequently a function of health and other unpredictable factors.
Having said all this, I am not advocating having children for the sole, self-serving reason of having people around you when you get old. I hope my earlier postings did not leave this impression. I merely think it is another factor to consider before making what will ultimately become be an irrevocable decision.