Poker players, please adjudicate this discussion

mhendo: I feel for you. I played in a freeroll myself today. Had AA under the gun, raised, got called by Q9o. Flop was K96. I bet, he raised. I re-raised. He called. Turn was a 2. I bet, he raised again. I called. River was another 9…Sam’s out of the tournament. C’est la vie. He’ll do that about one time in nine, and the rest of the time I’ll collect the chips. But it sure is annoying when it happens!

In loose games, very rarely. They’ll call anyway, so why not bet? In a tight, short-handed game, it depends. Against good players, deception becomes important. If you always bet your good hands and check your weak ones, you’ll soon find that you don’t get paid off on your good hands, and you get run over when you’d like a free card. So occasionally you have to be willing to check a good hand. But you should also be check-raising in these games, and sometimes you’ll miss a checkraise when it gets checked around, and it will look like a slow-play. That limits the amount of honest-to-god slowplays you need to do.

Let’s talk about a generic, full ring game that’s moderately loose. Let’s say there are four callers in the hand. What should you slow play, and when?

First, there are few hands that are strong enough for a real slow play. Certainly not AA, or generally even two pair. A set, maybe. It depends on the flop. If there is any kind of a draw, I would bet for two reasons - one is that other players may put YOU on the draw and call with very little. The other is that other players may have that draw, and it’s a major error to give them a free card if they would pay for it.

Let’s say I had AcAs, and the flop was Ah7c2s. This is a flop I might consider a slow-play. No one else is likely to have an Ace, and there are no draws, so who’s going to call? On the other hand, if I had JcJs, and the flop was Jh9h2s, there is no way I’m slow playing this. A bet here will get called by people with two overcards, a gutshot with an overcard, a heart draw, etc. If I’m
in early position with this hand, I’d strongly consider a check-raise, because this is the type of flop that’s likely to hit late position callers or at least give them a draw that they’ll try to bet with. So a bet from someone is pretty likely. If I’m in late position and there’s a bet in front of me, I’ll raise. If it’s re-raised, I *might consider just calling with the idea of raising again on the turn, but more likely I’ll just put the chips in.

A couple of notes on slow-playing: First, the pot has to be small. If the pot is large, your job is to win it as soon as possible. Don’t give people free cards to pick up draws that can beat you. If I’m in a pot with 20 bets in it, the only hand I’m likely to slowplay is quads or a straight flush. Second, don’t bother slow-playing weak players. Your primary source of profit against them is the money they spend on weak draws. So don’t give them free cards. They’ll call you anyway, so you have nothing to gain.

Anyone interested in reading literally hundreds of threads on the art of poker should check out www.twoplustwo.com. You can get practically any poker-related question answered there. It is now one of my favorite bookmarks, along with SDMB.:smiley:

Dangit Frostillicus you had my hopes up but I can’t stand forums where you have to keep on clicking to read threads. Damnit everyone should be like th SDMB.

Just thought i’d come back and make a few more observations, in case anyone’s interested.

After reading Rooves’s post i signed up at Truepoker (Rooves, what is your Truepoker handle? Mine is Hendo). It’s been quite an education for me, because the style of play is quite different than what i’m used to. At Pokerpages, where i usually play, nearly all the freeroll tables are no-limit, whereas the only no-limit tables at Truepoker are some of the tourney tables. The rest are ring games, and the highest play money limits are 15/30.

I’d never really played in these low-limit games before, and it really does require a totally different strategy. Before i figured out what i was doing, i was folding a bunch of hands pre-flop that i probably should have been calling with. I soon worked out, however, that there are many more callable hands in low-limit than there are in no-limit. Pretty soon i got into the swing of things, and turned my $1000 of fun money into almost $3000 pretty quickly. What amazed me most is how many of these low-limit players will just keep calling and calling, even when there are five or six other players in the pot, and even after the river comes and it should be obvious that someone has a better hand.

I mean, heaps of these players will call with two-pair when there are four suited cards on the table and a flush is almost a certainty. Oh well, as long as they call when it’s me who has that flush, i shouldn’t complain.

The problem at Truepoker, however, is that many of these people take the same betting tactics into the no-limit tourneys, making them very hard to kick out of the pot with a large pre-flop bet. I’ve made big raises with AA, only to have four or five people call and end up losing the pot to a low straight or a low two-pair. I have learned to be careful in the early parts of these tournaments, playing them more like a low-limit game and calling when i should be raising, and then hoping that i get a good flop.

Once the calling stations get knocked out (and they nearly always do), i can then revert to more correct no-limit technique because i know that there won’t be a bunch of people calling with nothing. I’ve ended up at the final table a few times, and my best finish was second.

Still, i’ve been bounced a few times by people on wild river draws, and it can get a bit frustrating. In fact, just a few minutes ago i got bumped from a tourney on a bad beat. I was down to the last 11 players, but i hadn’t been going too well and was on a pretty low stack. Added to that, i was in the big blind, which ate further into my chips. But i got dealt AQs, which is a reasonably good bet to try and get some chips back from a low stack chip count. There were five at the table. One guy called the big blind, and everyone else folded including the small blind. I raised all in, and the other guy called.

He turned up 3-6o, and i was looking good. Then the table came 5-6-3-8-6. It gave me a flush, but the other guy pulled off a full house and knocked me out. I was fuming, but managed to calm down and realize that i would beat him on that play more than 90 percent of the time

I had a chance to test out some of this theory about an hour ago. I was in the big blind, and i got dealt 10-4o. Of course, i would fold this every time, except that six people called and no-one raised the big blind, so i checked and got a chance to see the flop.

Well, blow me down if the flop didn’t come 10-10-10, and my crappy 10-4 hand turns into the stone motherless nuts. The pot wasn’t very big–800 or so–and i didn’t want to scare people off, so i put in the minimum bet, and sure enough everyone called, almost doubling the pot size. The turn was a J, and again i put in minimum bet. This time four called and two dropped out. The river was a K, and i was hoping desperately that someone had a pocket K and would raise, so i put in a slightly larger bet. Three folded and one person called. All he had was A-rag, and was obviously just hoping to steal the pot with an A kicker.

On reflection, maybe i should have gone harder and just hoped that someone called, but i think i managed to suck a reasonable amount of money out of them.

Another interesting thing about Truepoker is that, unlike Pokerpages and some other online games, your own pocket cards are not visible to you all the time, and you have to actually press a button to look them. Furthermore, everyone else at the table can see when you look at your cards.

I find it amazing how many people apparently don’t have the discipline to remember the value and the suits of their cards, and have to keep looking at them every time a new card is dealt. Often, if the flop comes with two suited cards, you see a whole bunch of people look at their cards to remind themselves of whether or not they might have a flush draw. This can give away a lot, especially if you keep track of a player’s movement and then keep an eye out for what their pocket cards were.

There are some interesting discussions on that board. Thanks for the link. Although, as treis says, it’s a bit of a pain to navigate.

Mhendo, my handle is Followmedown.

That’s a pretty good finish at the tourny table. My best finish was 32nd but I really just started playing.

I only entered one N/L tourny and can report to you that I suck at N/L.
On my FIRST hand I was dealt two A’s and three 10’s went down on the flop. The rest of the cards were garbage. Some guy goes all-in so I take him up on it. He turned out to be holding a 10. I finished 100th! I’m getting a little better at the N/L but anything is better than that!

I noticed pretty quickly the same thing you did about people constantly looking at their cards. I’m trying my hardest not to do that unless I want someone to think I have a bad hand.

Sams advice seemed to make pretty good sense so I tried to change my play a little and that night increased my bankroll (play $$, of course) from 5 to 8 thousand bucks. Then I don’t know if I strayed or started over-betting or what but lost 3 back on the next two visits.

Now I also never hang in there if things aren’t looking good by the time the flop gets dealt which is helping.

I’m still having a hard time with what the advantages are in regards to seating position. Here’s all I can gather: If you’re an early better you can possibly make people fold early and if you’re a late better you can see how (or if) everyone else bets and then base your wager on that Is that right?

Well, i don’t think you need to worry too much about that; i think most people would have made the same bet that you did. I certainly would have called with a pair of aces. I have one question–did you raise before the flop? I think it’s nearly always worth raising before the flop if you’re dealt two aces. Firstly, you are a good chance to have the best hand, even after the flop. Second, you can force out some of the other players, making it less likely that you’ll get beaten by an unlikely straight or some similarly annoying hand like four 10s.

It sounds like your experience with the four 10s was almost identical to the one i described in my earlier post, except you got the bad end of the deal. And that’s another reason that raising before the flop can help you. In the hand i described above, where i won with four 10s, i had 10-4 in my hand. If even one person had raised the big blind, i would have dropped out stragiht away and someone else would have won the hand. But, because it cost me nothing extra to see the flop, i checked and got lucky.

If you had raised before the flop, and that other guy had 10-7 or something equally bad, he might have folded and would never have been a danger to you later on in the hand.

It’s certainly true that such tactics can help, but i’m betting most people at those table aren’t looking at their cards as a tactical move; rather, i think they just don’t pay enough attention.

I think this is a key point. In low limit, you generally want to see the flop as cheaply as possible, and then get out if it doesn’t look like a winner. I found that this website has some excellent advice on low limit strategy.

Well, the last part of the sentence is certainly true. This is the advantage of being on the dealer button. You get to see how many people are betting the hand after the flop, which can give you a good idea of how strong the other players’ hands are. If your hand wasn’t improved very much by the flop, and a bunch of other people are betting and/or raising, then you’re better off getting out.

Being in early position, it’s very hard to drive people out in low limit, because the bets are relatively small. This is different from no limit, where you can put in a big bet that should get rid of quite a few. In low limit, people are much more likely to stick around and draw to a straight or a flush.

But i think that a mistake that lots of people seem to make in low limit is that they call every hand before the flop. Although it’s relatively cheap to see the flop, there are still plenty of hands that are very bad bets in low limit hold em. I think it’s worth trying to cultivate the discipline to fold your bad pre-flop hands, even if it sometimes turns out that you would have won the hand. This page has some pretty good advice for starting hands, and at the bottom there is a table that lists what hands you should call with in early, middle and late position.

I don’t know what Sam would think of this advice–if he disagrees, then you should listen to him rather than me, as he certainly knows much more about it than i do.

I believe the advice on that page is too loose. Without doing the math, I think if you played all those hands you would be playing close to 30% of your hands. I play more like 18%. I do not play suited kings below KTs anywhere but on the button but in the blinds - occasionally I might loosen up and play a K9s in late position.

I don’t believe T9o can be played profitably from middle position, or 87s. I won’t play Axs under the gun or in middle position in all but the weakest, softest games.

I’m a sucker for pairs, but even I won’t play 22 or 33 under the gun. You need five or six callers and an unraised pot to play those hands profitably, and too often even in loose games you’ll get raised, everyone will fold, and you’ll wind up out of position against an aggressive player with a small pair - a lousy situation.

75o is garbage and should not be played, ever. The other small one-gap offsuit connectors I might play out of the small blind if I’m in for half a bet, and that’s about it.

The advice on that page that you should just fold your Axs if you flop an Ace is all well and good, except that if you’re going to do that you’re playing for flush value only, and that’s not profitable. Plus, you just get pot-stuck too often. Here’s a common scenario: You call with A4s. There are six callers, and a raise. Everyone calls. There are now 14 small bets in the pot. The flop is AT3. You check, it gets checked around to the button, who bets. You gonna fold to what might be a second pair bet, with 15 small bets in the pot? Hell, you’re only about 15 to 1 to hit our kicker, and you’re getting that from the pot already. So you call.

(incidentally, it’s probably better to raise in this situation. If you’re going to continue with this cheesy hand, you want to do everything in your power to thin the field. In particular, you want the gutshot 25 hands out of the pot so if you hit your 3 you won’t lose to a straight, and you want the smaller pairs out. Hell, you want everyone out).

So, you call. And now the next player raises, and all these loopy people call two bets cold. Now there’s maybe 25 bets in the pot. The turn brings a blank, you check, the next guy bets, three people call, and now there’s maybe 17 big bets in the pot. Are you going to release that top pair now?

These are the kind of tough decisions you want to avoid. If you’re folding the best hand, it’s a HUGE mistake. But you could also be drawing dead to a set or AT. Calling is also a mistake.

Until you get to be an absolute expert poker player, you need to avoid these situations, because you probably won’t play them well. Also, if you’re frustrated and on tilt, it’s tempting to play more hands, but the proper thing to do is to play fewer hands, because your judgement is off. Better yet, if you find yourself steaming, leave the table.

The raising strategy is a bit loopy. They say this:

For AA, this isn’t bad advice, as long as you are very certain that someone will raise behind you. AA is the only hand that gets more profitable as the number of callers and the amount of money going into the pot before the flop increases. The best situation for AA pre-flop is to have 10 callers paying 4 bets each.

But it’s also a disaster if you don’t get a raise in at all. You’d rather play against 5 people paying 2 bets than 9 people paying one. So unless you’re certain, just raise with AA and don’t stop raising until you hit the limit or people stop re-raising you.

The only time you don’t want to raise with AA is if you think raising is almost certain to win you the blinds. AA is worth much more than the blinds, wheras most other good hands have an expectation lower than the value of the blinds, so you don’t mind winning them.

KK is another matter. It plays better against a smaller field with a raised pot, for the primary reason that you want all the singleton aces out of the pot. I would raise with KK almost every time.

Forget the random raises with pocket pairs in low limit games. You’re just destroying your own odds, and the deception you gain will be lost on the generally clueless players you’re up against. The only reason to raise with Axs is so that if you do flop an Ace you have a chance to get a bigger ace to fold to a bet. Good luck in a low-limit game.

The big suited connectors play well against a large field, so I would be more likely to go for a call-reraise than with AKo, which you should raise with to thin the field.

The site seems to imply that you should raise with A9 or KT. There is only one reason to do that - to win the blinds. Those two hands are hands that should only be played if you’re first into the pot in late position, in which case you should raise if you think you can win the blinds, or just chuck them if you don’t think so. This especially applies to A9o - at least KT can make straights.

So I guess I don’t think much of the advice on that page. Since it seems to be hosted by UltimateBet, I wonder if part of the intention of that advice is to help keep their games a little looser and more attractive?

I have no poker insights to contribute, but am fascinated by and appreciate this discussion. I did want to point out how much the following snippet:

reminded me of Swingers:

“Always double down on 11.”
“But I lost.”
“You always double down on 11.”
“Obviously not always.”
“Always.”
“But I lost.”
“You always double down on 11.”
“Forget it.”

Ah, but he’s wrong! You don’t double down on an 11 if the dealer is showing an ace. So not always! :slight_smile:

Sam Stone, have you ever read Ken Warren’s Winner’s Guide to Texas Hold’em? I just finished it, and his strategy seemed fairly similar to yours.

I think I’ve got Warren’s book around here somewhere. I probably read it five years ago or so. Sorry, I don’t remember much about it, although I seem to recall it had some controversial ideas in it.

Hey, where a complete novice (as in, “Read 'em and weep, all black!”), learn and play online without infringing on the more experienced games. Sounds like fun!

All of the online poker sites have free games that you can play in to get a feel for the game and learn strategy. The most popular site on the internet right now is www.partypoker.com.

If you want to see links to all the sites and realtime updates showing how many games are on them, go to www.pokerpulse.com

Are there any sites where you can play for small amounts of money?

I’ve been playing real money online hold 'em for about a year now, and I 100% agree with everything Sam Stone said. The more selective you are about what hands to play, the better. Sure, it sucks to sometimes sit there and not play for 30 hands, but it really is worth it.

mhendo, before I played real money, I started in play money games. They are good for practicing discipline, but that’s it. People simply can’t play with fake money the same way they do with real money, because there’s just not the same incentive to fold. So your opponents will give you their money hand over fist. When I first played for real money, I then played way too many hands and took them way too far, before I realized that my experience in play money games was essentially worthless. I could quadruple my stack in play money games in 30 minutes, because everyone is so loose and stupid. In real money, you really have to be patient above all else, and not try to force wins. Also, I play pretty low limit ring games, and I’ve learned to bluff only rarely – you’re more likely to steal small pots and lose big ones if you bluff too much.

Actually, while I have a seasoned expert who I’m not playing against available, I have a few questions for you, Sam, if you don’t mind:

  1. How do you play pairs like TT or JJ if an overcard flops, and someone bets into you? Fold immediately? Take it to fourth st and then fold if a set doesn’t hit? Take it all the way? Assume you raised pre-flop, got 2-3 callers, and you’re in late position. Typical 10-person game, say 2-4 stakes. Loose enough that people often play hands like A7 or K8.

  2. Similarly, how valuable do you think low or middle pair is with a high kicker? e.g. the flop is 3-6-Q, and you hold A6.

Lately, I’ve been folding these a lot more than I’ve been playing them, unless I have good reason to think the bettor is bluffing or playing rags. As you mentioned in a previous post, I try to avoid hands where I’ll sweat all the way to the river and still only have marginal chances to win. But at the same time I don’t want to play so weak that I can easily be bluffed out by observant players.

I hate these situations online. In real games, I have a pretty good read on most of the people I’m playing against. Online, I find it more difficult.

This is basically a judgement call, and your decision should depend on, A) the size of the pot, B) people left to act behind you, C) The texture of the flop, and D) action on previous rounds.

One option that isn’t very good is to call and then automatically fold on fourth. I’m a believer in making good flop decisions. Remember, you’re about 22-1 to hit your set on the turn, so calling a bet with the intention of folding if you don’t hit it should only be done if there maybe 15 bets in the pot and no chance of a raise behind you. 15 bets is usually enough because this play has high implied odds - if you hit your set on the turn, you’ll usually be in a position to extract at least two more big bets.

The decision requires judgement. For example, let’s say a player raises from early position, three people call, and you call with TT. The flop is J52. Early position raiser bets, everyone else folds, and it’s your turn to call. The big question to ask now is, “What would he raise with before the flop in that position that beats me?” The obvious answer is a big pair in the hole like KK or AA. But if this player is aggressive enough that he would also bet out with an AK or AQ, then the pure odds say he probably has one of those hands and you’re ahead. But most players are less likely to bet that holding into a big field, so you’d have to estimate the chances he you beat, compare it to the size of the flop, and make your decision. But in this case, if I were going to call I’d probably raise. Then if he re-raises (which he’s almost sure to do with an overpair), you can either fold on the spot or fold on the turn if he bets into you. If he just calls and checks to you on the turn, you can either take a free card, or perhaps continue betting if a scare card lands like another Jack.

If you take a free card in this situation, you’re pretty much committed to calling on the river unless perhaps an Ace or King falls.

Now look at a similar situation - unraised pot, four callers. You’re in second position with TT. The flop is J92. First player bets, you’re next to act. You should fold. Why? Because A) the pot is small, b) you could be raised behind you, c) if you hit your ten, it could bring in a straight for someone, and d) you’re out of position to the field.

Be more prepared to fold your pair more often if the overcard that lands is an A or K. There are more playable hands with and A or K, so it’s more likely that the card hit someone. If the overcard is a jack, it’s less likely. Adjust your odds calculation accordingly.

I’d guess on average that when the flop has an overcard to my pair and there’s any action in front of me, I fold 80-90% of the time. In live games, probably about half the time because of the better understanding I have of the situation.

First, if you find yourself in this situation a lot, you should review your hand selection. The only really playable hand like this is a suited Ace, or occasionally a suited King. Of course, once in a while you come out of the blinds with a piece of scrap that hits the flop like this.

First, you have five outs. Not much better than a gutshot, so right off the bat you know that you’re about a 9-1 underdog. So if the pot is small and you’re pretty sure you’re beat at that point, just fold.

A 3 flush helps this hand quite a lot, especially if it’s ace high. A 3 flush is roughly equivalent to 2 outs, so together with your five outs for 2 pair or a set, you’re not much worse than an open-ended straight. Typically, if I’m last to act I’ll call to see the turn if I have a 3 flush, and fold if I don’t unless the pot is very large. If I pick up the flush draw on the turn, obviously I’m going to the river. Otherwise, if I miss I’m usually going to be gone.

In short-handed poker, btw, all this changes because the odds go up that your hand is actually the best. Short-handed is a whole 'nuther discussion.

Sure. Remember, hold-em is the toughest poker game for being able to come from behind due to the community nature of the flop. In general, winning players should be playing from a position of strength, and should be aggressive. Generally, you should be the one with the best kicker, the most outs, etc. That allows you to be more aggressive, which is the formula for winning.

If you find yourself making a lot of tough calls on the river, the answer isn’t necessarily to fold more on the river - by then the pot is large enough to make any call with a small chance to win correct. But if you’re always in that situation, it’s time to review pre-flop hand selection and your play on the flop.

Hope this helps.

Btw, one of the most common errors I see online are betting decisions on the river. Most players have the idea that they should bet if they think they have the best hand. This is incorrect. The correct evaluation is whether you have the best hand if you are called. That’s a much different question. Let’s say you put a player on a flush draw that missed, and you have top pair. Should you bet? Nope. If you were right, he will fold anyway, and you gain nothing. If you’re wrong, you cost yourself at least a bet.

Also, remember that if the player has a weaker hand, he’ll call for one bet. But if he has a better hand, he might raise and you’ll lose two bets. So really, the formula is that you have to think you’ll get called by a worse hand maybe 67% of the time.

If you’re out of position, checking should be done more often because you might induce a bluff from a busted draw that would fold if you bet.

It seems a lot of players lose bets by never betting their reasonably good hands on the river, while others bet far too much with marginal holdings. It’s a good area for tuning up your game.

Sam, thanks for the detailed responses! That all makes a lot of sense. I can’t say that I play that intelligently all the time, but I’m trying. Glad to hear I’m not the only one who thinks JJ against an overcard sucks – I see a lot of people take JJ or QQ to the river regardless of the board. Always wondered if they knew something I didn’t. :slight_smile:

And just out of sheer pride I almost posted an addendum to say that I would never play A6, unless it was from the blinds (unraised) or suited with a lot of callers and no raisers pre-flop. I just chose that to be an extreme example of times when I fold but worry that I’m playing too weak.

Your remarks about betting on the river are especially apt – this is probably one of my weakest areas. I’m pretty good about not going to the river unless I have a strong hand or a lot of outs, but once there I don’t think I’m maximizing my betting strategy.

Sam,

I just wanted to say that I’ve probably learned more about poker from this thread than from the other 30 years of my life. Not that it’s saying a lot, because my previous exposure consists mainly of stupid pickup games in high school, “Rounders”, and this year’s WSOP. I find your explanations clear and they make a great deal of sense, and you do a great job of explaining your reasoning and the variables that go into your various decisions. Have you written a book on the subject?

-lv

Sam, you’re hired as our Doper Texas Holdem consultant. Thanks for taking the time to learn us.

Mhendo, I stopped by a table you were at today to say hi. You weren’t paying attention so I went on my way.

I just started today to play raise/fold which I think is pretty cool because it seems less dangerous that N/L but more exciting than the low limit games.

Anybody have any thoughts on the r/f game?