…back when those “I (heart) my dog” or “I (heart)N.Y.” bumperstickers were so popular there was for sale a little book of self adhesive stickers that carried an illustration of a SCREW that fit exactly over the heart icon on most bumperstickers, thereby changing the sticker to read …well you get the idea.:eek:
Not to be too obtuse, but if you’ve plastered your car with stickers, isn’t it already defaced? 
Maybe the people stealing the Darwin fish want them for their own cars and don’t know where to buy them!
I don’t like most bumper stickers. I’m too easily distracted by language, and there are enough distractions on the road.
I did see one amusing bumper sticker recently, though. It was a red sticker with three lines of text:
VOTE (in blue)
FOR IDIOCY (in yellow) (this wasn’t exactly what it said, but it was Bush-bashing nonetheless)
BUSH (in blue)
The yellow and red had faded to about the same tone, so all that stuck out from a distance was the blue “VOTE BUSH”.
I never put stickers on a car other than university parking stickers, until the whole Kansas/evolution issue. Then I did indeed go out and get a Darwin fish. It lasted up until two weeks ago, when it disappeared off the back of my car. Later I found out that a friend’s boyfriend (fairly religious guy) had done it. He says that it was meant as a joke, and that he was going to turn it upside down and put it back, but that it wouldn’t stick once he pried it off. It took a week before I found any of this out though. Any way I forgave him-- Told him “It’s the Christian thing to do after all” :D-- but I was still a bit pissed that he did it.
As to the idea that the Darwin Fish parodies the unadorned Christian fish symbol, of course it does, and why not? For years many Christians have not only claimed to have a lock on Truth, but also the moral high ground over us benighted heathens. Bible passages, “WWJD?” stickers, “Well, GOD believes in YOU!” stickers, other “inspirational” messages meant to chide us for our nonbelief or assert the owner’s moral superiority (“rapture” stickers and the like) get tiresome. I bought the Darwin fish because I support evolution, but if the Darwin fish symbol gives off the message that I think there’s nothing to their beliefs what of that? I’ve been getting the same treatment for years after all, and the Darwin fish is no more “in your face” than the unadorned version. In fact, it’s a rather low-key pronunciation when compared to sermons I have been subjected to in traffic, and besides, the legged fish is a perfect visual for evolution.
Speaking as a Christian who NEVER would put one of these stickers on her car, I agree. Especially the Rapture ones (not all Christians believe in the Rapture, you know…) However, some of the “inspirational” stickers may not be actively meant to chide you. I always took them as messages that other Christians would appreciate, and others could ignore. The way I ignore the “Pro Bass” stickers. (I am a vegetarian, I certainly DON’T fish, so I manage to ignore these stickers.)
I think this is where we differ. I believe that it’s possible that there could be a “pro” evolution sticker/symbol created that would not have to simultaniously mock someone else’s long-held symbol. I see the Fish as something akin to the Christian Cross, or a nationality flag, or some other symbol that shows a person is a “member” of something. It is not actually expressing that it is “against” something else, and I don’t see how it’s mere presence on the back of a car is not actually chiding anyone for anything. I think that you just suppose that it does, but there’s no real way to know that that was the intent of the car’s owner. The other bumper stickers, though - they are a little more “in your face”, I can see why they could be considered obnoxious. But the Fish is just an image - a symbol, for Christians. A lot of groups have such symbols. Big whoop.
If you wanted to tell someone that “there’s nothing to their beliefs”, perhaps mocking one of the more obvious “in your face” stickers would have been more fitting. (They were obnoxious first, after all.) But I don’t see how a mere fish is sending you the message that “there’s nothing to your beliefs”, so why the need to parody it?
I guess this is why I like my car to stay out of these bumper sticker issues. Someone mocks someone, or someone supposes that they are being chided or mocked. And then someone else mocks back, everyone gets their feathers ruffled… And then I get to see a lot of OBNOXIOUS bumper stickers on both sides, and roll my eyes. Sigh.
Obviously it’s possible. The same company that makes evolve-fish also makes bumper stickers that say “Honk if you understand punctuated equilibria!” and “Oh, Evolve!” and “Evolutionists do it . . . with increasing complexity!” and “I give evolution two opposable thumbs up!” Check out: http://www.evolvefish.com . None of those, in my opinion, has the impact that the homely Darwin fish does.
In any case, why do people have pro-evolution bumper stickers in the first place? I don’t see many “germ-theory” or “general relativity” bumper stickers. People feel the need to make a pro-evolution statement because the theory of evolution is under assualt by the sort of people who put Christian fishes on their cars. Plus, like Ptahlis said, a footed-fish is a visual joke too good to pass up. It attracts the eye, and it makes a memorable statement.
If a non-creationist Christian sees an evolve-fish sticker, I hope they don’t see it as an assault on Christianty, but rather as an assault on creationism. It doesn’t have to be interpreted as a slam on all Christianity. A pro-evolution Christian might think of it as a positive statement, too, saying that religion has to evolve in light of science. But I can’t control what people think.
Well, I get tweaked at fishes on cars. It’s not “a mere fish.” It’s saying, “I’m Christian. Not only am I Christian, but I feel a need to put a fish on my car so that you know that I’m Christian and you’ll think about Christ and you’ll feel included if you’re a Christian and excluded if you’re not a Christian.” Anybody who puts a fish on their car and expects people not to have any emotional reaction to it is naive. Like you said, it’s a long-standing symbol of a religion–and it’s impossible to make an emotionally null statement about religion.
Of course, I have a science fish on my car which says, “Not only am I pro-science, but I feel the need to put a science fish on my car so you know it, and if you’re a creationist I hope you’re ashamed of yourself.” It’s supposed to tweak people. That’s why it’s there. It’s not intended to deeply offend anyone, but I can’t guarantee that nobody’s deeply offended by it, just like a bass fisherman can’t guarantee that a vegetarian more militant than yourself won’t be extremely angry at a bumper sticker that glorifies the slow torture of another living creature as a sport.
Bumper stickers are supposed to attract attention and be witty and memorable. It’s hard to imagine a good one that won’t offend anybody. As mentioned above, even a completely boring bumper sticker promoting a common hobby might be offensive to someone. Where you draw the line at what’s offensive and what’s not, or what’s appropriate and what’s not, is a matter personal opinion. No matter where you draw those lines, there will be people who disagree with you.
I won’t tolerate any bumper stickers on my car. I get tired of the “Fish War” between the Darwin/Christian fish. Political ones get old. (Though I’m tempted to get a Cthulhu for President one.)
Heh Podkayne do you expect christans to be on a morally higher ground than you? Because that seems to be how your defending yourself.
Heh David B your like your owns statement “Some people can’t bear to see opposing viewpoints, I guess.” Do you expect christans to be on a morally higher ground than you? Well actually obviouisly you do from your own statement:)
For myself going through all the extensive trouble of putting a bumpersticker on your car is waaay too much trouble.
Asmodean said:
Want to try that again in English?
I like the fish. It reminds me of Pepperidge Farm Goldfish Crackers.
I love fishes cuz they’re so delicious…gotta go fishin’!
I had the 'Cthulhu in ‘96 - Why settle for the lesser evil?’ bumper sticker. I got nothing but complements on it, several times people would get out of their cars and walk up to mine in the drive-thru to tell me that they liked my bumper sticker. Unfortunately, I had to have that bumper re-painted. 8^(
It’s “not a mere fish” to you. It does not necessarily follow that everyone who puts it on their car is trying to tell you anything profound, or actually trying to tweak you. Anymore than a fisherman who puts a “Pro Bass” sticker on his car is trying to tweak me or tell me (or all vegetarians) anything. Maybe he just likes fishing. He’s a fisherman, and he doesn’t think any further than that. And a Christian who puts a fish on their car is a Christian. I like Yosemite, I put a Yosemite sticker on my car. It may actually (at least in some cases) be as simple as that.
I’m sure you are correct in some cases, but I doubt in all cases. That’s a whole lot of message to put into a simple little fish. You assume that every person who puts a symbol of their belief, (or pastime, as in the Pro Bass fish) is simultaniously trying to tell everyone else of their superiority, or trying to “convert” them. And I don’t think that always follows. I would also say that anyone who interpreted a whole lot of stuff about a “Pro Bass” sticker is thinking way too much about someone else’s sticker. But that’s just me, I guess.
Also, if a mere fish is going to tweak you, what about a Christian cross? What about when a person wears a cross around their neck? Is that tweaking you too? Do you feel that every person who wears a cross is trying to tell you all these things as well? (If so, you must spend a lot of time feeling tweaked!)
Then I guess it’s impossible to make an emotionally null statement about anything, then. A flag, a Pro Bass fish, a peace symbol, anything. The question is, how much of an emotional reaction is required for some of these old, well-established symbols? They’ve been around forever, they are seen everywhere. I think they lose some of their punch over time. They hold a lot less power or emotional punch than some of the more “obnoxious” bumper stickers.
Hey, it’s just me…I am not going to pry anyone’s Darwin fish off their car, it doesn’t bother me that much. But I do see the symbol as mocking something that never really rose to the level of insufferable obnoxiousness. I do think there are plenty of pro-Christian bumper stickers that are cloying and smug and irritating. They REALLY make me cringe. But the fish isn’t one of them. It’s pretty bland, IMO. And I think it is not as easy to attribute a whole lot of smug self-righteousness to it, unless you are looking for it. But with the “In case of rapture”, well…arggh. That’s too obviously smug, as far as I’m concerned.
I used to have a “LAND RIGHTS FOR GAY WHALES” sticker (made it myself) on my car.
It used to make most people laugh, even if they didn’t know where I was really coming from.
Can I get an AMEN?
I was just about to say that. Hell, what if someone put a Jewish Star of David on their car?
If they’re Christian, why should they feel they have to hide it? What’s so bad about being a Christian?
Some people seem to be saying (some more eloquently than others) that I don’t think people should express their religious leanings. Apologies if that is the impression I have given. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think all people should feel free to express themselves.
My point is this: when you give your viewpoint you must be aware that some people may react negatively to it, and sometimes no amount of telling them how wrong you think their reaction is will make them feel good about what you’re saying.
I used the slangy word “tweaked”, which probably lead to much of the misunderstanding. By “tweaked” I mean that I get a strong emotional reaction, a jolt–I sit up and take notice, I think about what is being said. Let me emphasize, this is a good thing. I welcome a diversity of viewpoints; if everybody agreed with me, I’d be bored to death.
To address some of Yosemitebabe’s points:
So is “Jesus Christ died for your sins, and worshipping Him is the path to salvation.” But that’s the heavy burden the little fishie must swim with.
You can’t have it both ways. Either putting a fish on your car is a strong statement of faith, or people have no grounds to be offended when the fish is parodied.
No, I do not. I didn’t say any such thing in my post. Also, since I did not use the word convert, I feel that it is inappropriate for you to put in quotes.
My point is that displaying a Christian symbol (be it a fish on your car or a cross around your neck) is identifying with a group. To another Christian, you’re saying, “We have something in common.” To a non-Christian, you’re saying, “We are different.” As a Christian in a largely Christian society, you probably feel that saying “I’m a Christian,” is a pretty neutral statement–you are likely to encounter amny more Christians than non-Christians, and your statement of group identity is more likely to reinforce relationships than cause alienation. However, put yourself in the shoes of a non-Christian for a moment. Why don’t we see a lot of Stars of David on cars, as Guinastasia mentioned? What do you think a Jewish person feels when they see a Christian fish on a car?
Now, it’s perfectly valid for you to say that my reaction to a Christian fish is unimportant because that I am a member of a thin-skinned atheist minority, so in your opinion the Christian fish remains innocuous. However, please recognize that this does not change my feelings about Christian fish, and it doesn’t change the way I’ll react, e.g. by displaying a parody of the fish without feeling that I’m escalating some sort of obnoxious-bumper-sticker war.
That, I think, is another question for another time.
True, but I am entitled to think that their reaction is overreacting.
Wearing a cross is a statement of faith, does that also offend you? Does any or every symbol connected with a religious faith offend you?
As a vegetarian, I am in the minority. I am serious about my vegetarianism, and I do get grief about it. But I would be exhausted if I thought that every “In-N-Out Burger” bumper sticker, or “Pro Bass” sticker was making a STATEMENT to me, as a vegetarian. It is just a sticker slapped on a car, by a person who liked that thing. They were not thinking about how it would make a vegetarian feel. They were not trying to send a “message” to me. I could, if I chose to, decide that every Pro Bass or burger joint bumper sticker was an attempt to tell me how great meat was, and how I was “missing out”. (Meat eaters frequently do this to me, personally. They say “Mmmmm…I’m eating this burger in front of you!, SEE?”) I could, if I chose, decide that the same level of intensity and meaning was present in these bumper stickers. And then I coud decide to display a “Meat is Murder” bumper sticker to “mock” these meat eaters. But I’ve decided not to take the bumper stickers that way, or react with a “mocking” bumper sticker of my own. So I guess I cannot personally understand why other people cannot do the same thing with the Christian fish. But that’s just me, I guess.
Regarding the “convert” thing - I think the sentence you wrote was (bolding mine):
Pardon me if I took that to mean “convert”, but I could see no other reason for someone to (in your imagination) want someone to “think” about Christ, unless there was some sly attempt for “conversion” down the road.
I could also apply your reaction to the Christian Fish to the Pro Bass fish. I could think:
"Well, I get tweaked at Pro Bass fishes on cars. It’s not “a mere fish.” It’s saying, “I’m fisherman. Not only am I fisherman, but I feel a need to put a fish on my car so that you know that I’m fisherman and you’ll think about fishing and you’ll feel included if you’re a fishing and excluded if you’re not a fisherman.”
And that would be JUST too exhausting for me to do. So I just take these stickers to be that the guy likes to fish. Big whoop. But…that’s just me, I guess.
Well, we agree. And so what? I can cope with seeing bumper stickers that tell me “We are different”. I don’t have to be offended by that.
I cannot say. But I DO know what it feels like to be a vegetarian who sees a lot of meat-related bumper stickers on cars, and I have already told you my reaction.
Well, I would not use the phrase “thin-skinned atheist minority”…
Well, please understand that as a “minority” (kinda sorta) who has decided to NOT react by parodying something that I see everywhere, but do not agree with (Pro Bass, etc.) I DO feel that you are starting some sort of obnoxious bumper sticker war. The fact that I avoid such activities says that I DO feel that it is obnoxious, and I don’t want to start down that slippery slope.
But that’s just me, I guess. 
I think that part of the reason people publicly display Christian symbols is to get preferential treatment from other Christians. I know it’s the main reason many businesses will put the fish on their signs or yellow-pages ads, a devout Christian trying to decide which mechanic to take his car to will often choose the ‘Christian’ one.
I owned a truck that had a small sticker from some pro-police organization/charity on the windshield from a previous owner. One time when I was pulled over for speeding the highway patrolmen was about to write me a ticket when he noticed the sticker, leaned over to get a better look at it, then let me go with a warning. That was the one time I actually noticed that - perhaps other times when I was pulled over in that truck (I used to speed a LOT) that sticker helped me get off easy. I’m sure bumper stickers have helped people out similarly before.
Slow down. I never said that Christian fish or other religious symbols offend me. I said that I have negative reaction to them. I consider something offensive if it is an unambiguous an undeserved insult. However, if someone disagrees with me, I can feel strongly about it without being offended. To me, if something is offensive, I really feel the person should not have said it–but as I’ve said, I have no objection to people expressing their religious views.
How about if they want other people who are already Christians to be reminded of Christ’s love for them? I may be wrong, but I figure that a major reason do display a religous symbol is to create a feeling of fellowship and affirm the faith of other believers, rather than some misguided attempt to convert someone. As I said, I perceive Christian fishes as a statement of group identity, rather than a direct attack on non-Christians.
Again, I am not offended, but I still feel that in that statement, “I’m part of this group and you are not,” there’s a certain degree of smugness. Even though you mistakenly attributed it to me, you yourself percieved an implied sense of superiority in identifying with a group. And I’m not saying that there’s anything wrong with making such a display or with feeling superior, rather that you simply must realize that some people will react negatively to it.
I emphasize again, I don’t have a science-fish as a direct backlash against Christian fish. It’s a statement against creationism that happens to be a clever parody of a Christian symbol that I find somewhat annoying.
I am not saying that Christians shouldn’t put fishes on their cars, but rather that since they do feel the need to proclaim their faith to anybody stuck behind them in traffic, they can hardly feel self-righteous when somebody else uses the same symbol. I realize that some will be offended by by my science-fish, but I think that’s a reasonable price to pay for a really catchy pro-evolution statement. If they feel the need to retaliate with a Jesus-fish-eating-a-science fish, that’s their choice. I’ll react negatively, but I will not be offended.
But, (to coin a phrase) that’s just me.
I’m sorry that you’re a non-combatant casualty in the obnoxious-bumper-sticker war. Hopefully you can, with your apparent grace and poise, ignore us if we get too far out of hand.
That’s an interesting thought. I had the worst customer service experience of my life in a shop that was loaded down with Christian symbols and playing a Christian radio station. I wouldn’t have gone there in the first place, except they were the only shop I could find anywhere that even claimed they could help me out.
They deliberately lied to me, misled me, and tried to trick me, all over a matter of $40. It was sickening. I know better now–if they’re trying too hard to convince you that they’re good Christians, they’re probably trying to pull the wool over your eyes.
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I realize that, and specifically I think that the plain old fish is pretty innocuous.
**
Really? I understand that the fish is an old symbol, but I really have never received the impression that it held any sort of sacredness within the religion, ala the cross or crucifix. It strikes me more as a sort of “fraternity pin” for Christians than anything else. I would not, for instance, put a message up to deliberately profane a cross.
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Well, as I stated before, those I would consider my “opponents” are those who are trying to foist Creation “Science” off on our society, not Christians in general. (Well, them and the ultra-fundies, which are an almost completely overlapping group.) To those people I am indeed saying specifically “There is nothing to your beliefs,” specifically that Genesis is a literal account of the origins of the universe. True, other Christians may also see the Darwin fish as a refutation of their theological beliefs, but that is not my primary intent, and my reaction is still “What of that?” I don’t worry that they will take offense at my Darwin fish as a refutation of their worldview just as they probably don’t worry about me possibly taking offense at their plain old fish as a refutation of my own (which I don’t by the way.)
As far as finding a sticker that supports evolution without incorporating a fish, I confess that I have never given it a thought. I bought the Darwin fish because I saw it advertised, realized that the people I diametrically oppose, creationists, would react both to the idea of evolution and the subtle mockery of their symbol, and also because of the incredible aptness of a legged fish as a metaphor for evolution. As such, I like it fine, and anyone that gets outraged by it is likely just the sort of person who I am targeting. The run of the mill Christian who isn’t wholly consumed by his religion might think it is in poor taste, but I doubt they would think it truly offensive.