Poly, tom~, Zev, Lib, Brick...beagledave gullible?

The BBQ Pit
41

Gobear, I can grant your “some” premises – God knows I’ve done my level best, and will continue to do so, to attempt to get Christians to behave more the way Jesus did and less the way Constantine did (for lack of a better example that comes readily to mind).

However, you made some statements about belief in general that I have a problem with – and I’d be very much honored if you would take the trouble to read through the thread that badchad started in GD about two or three weeks ago to challenge my belief structure, and then to ask some probing questions about that belief system – in an effort to suggest to you that a rational approach to Christian faith is not totally oxymoronic. I’d much prefer that over a snide “he said/he said” exchange, complete with dueling quote-and-response chains.

42

While the Soviets may have called themselves atheists, they were as blinded by ideology as any fundamentalist Christian. All they did was substitute Stalin for Christ. Nice try.

43

So they were no true atheists?

*::: g, d, & r ::: *

44

From the point of view of this atheist, I must disagree. While I may agree that there are some establishment figures in religion who are “cons”, by no means do I think all are.

Nor do I think that all christians or all members of any religion (leaving aside cults) have been duped. Or even most. They may believe in something that I do not believe in: they may be more likely to believe in things without proof.
But “duped by a con”? No. Not even close.

Can I still be an atheist, Tejota?

45

Religion and politics, two subjects that are almost never agreed upon.
You know, sometimes you just have to take a look at the person doing the posting, his past posts especially, and just take it with a grain of salt. My mama once told me that arguing with a signpost would get you more satisfaction than arguing with someone that can’t see past his nose.
In most cases you will NOT change a person’s point of view. You just learn to live with it, or ignore them.

46

The historical dialectic basically was a religion in practice, in the sense that everything was supposed to be explained by it even though it lacked objective proof. The Soviets were indeed athiests though and put alot of pride into having stripped their society of the old superstitions. At least in principle, the adoption of communism was an attempt to run society on modernist principles. The push in the 19th century to apply the methods of science that had been so successful in explaining the physical world to the political and social world as well, that led to communist Russia. It was based on rational principles if you put it within its time frame. Unfortunately, the labor theory of value had been debunked 30 years before the October Revolution, so it didn’t have as much basis as they thought it did, but still it was intially an effort at a rational society based on scientific principles.

47

Sorry, no. It’s outa the club for you…

But seriously. How can you possibly call yourself and athiest and at the time time believe that the thiests are not fooling theselves (and each other) about the nature of reality? The one follows naturally from the other. Just as thiests are essentially required by their beliefs to think the same of Athiests.

At best, you can respect the other’s right to be wrong, but If you think at they aren’t wrong, then you aren’t an athiest.

The bottom line here is that either believers or non-believers are wrong. They simply can’t both be right. And yet neither Theist’s no Athiest’s belief systems allow for the possiblity of uncertainty. (those who do are called agnostics).

48

What about them damn fajitas?

She said she loved me like a brother. She was from Arkansas, hence the Joy!

49

—How can you possibly call yourself and athiest and at the time time believe that the thiests are not fooling theselves (and each other) about the nature of reality?—

Simple.

~BG != B~G

The essential problem is that while people can try to justify their beliefs via arguments, and I can find these arguments wanting, I cannot conclude that someone’s belief rests on only those arguments which have/can be made to me. To say that, broadly, all such beliefs misstate reality is far beyond what I can warrant. I can only say that I cannot confirm or agree to affirm their portrayal of reality.

—but If you think at they aren’t wrong, then you aren’t an athiest.—

So says you. I guess if don’t believe the world was created in six days, I’m not a Christian.

Stalinists were atheists.

50

Considering that Pentecostal sects are the fastest growning sects and The Assemblies of God is the largest Protestant denomination in the US, I’d say, yes, it’s a fairly large segment.

51

Homebrew: Cites about the numbers, please? Proof that all of these people are gullible dummies?

And I might mention here, one of my friends is a Pentacostal. Other than wearing skirts and dresses all the time, she is not gullible or weird or stupid. She doesn’t preach to me and has a great deal of common sense. She’s studying to be a nurse and is doing very well.

So even if there are certain denominations that are growing and you deem these denominations to be full of “gullible” dummies, how can you prove that every member of these denominations are as you assume? My Pentecostal friend does not fit your profile.

52

according to:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/us_rel2.htm

Catholics are far and away the largest Christian denomination in the US. followed by the Baptists and then Methodists. Pentecosts are 4th on the list but way fewer in number than the top three.

53

:smiley: Yeah, the fajitas are great!
MoF I grilled some last night and had Margaritas as well. Haven’t seen the Top in a few years though…:frowning: I was in Helotes and had passed through LaGrange on the way…they were in SanAntone during Oktoberfest…damn what a party :cool:

54

Just wanted to lighten the atmosphere a bit…we’re all friends here, right? Surely no-one HERE thinks I am stupid because I profess a belief in an intelligence that is superior to man’s.

I just get tired of the name calling, that’s all.

Peace

55

Tejota wrote

Actually, setting up false dichotomies like that is against my religion.

56

I’d just like to point out that most con men I’ve read about or seen on TV (either after conviction or with face modified) have said that it is impossible to con an honest man. Apparently, cons inevitably revolve around convincing the mark that he can get something for nothing, or for very little, and usually at someone else’s expense. Might not being a cynical sob atheist make you more susceptible to this?

57

Do you see that as a personal insult to you? to the large segment? to the Christ? to all Christians?

I am a Christian with training in Christian education and in evaluation of critical thinking skills. I don’t wish to insult you or anyone personally. But Gobear is correct. There is a large segment of Christians who accept almost everything fed to them by ministers, elders, the Pope, the Bishop or fellow Christians – without question.

For many of these Christians, that is what having faith means: To believe without question.

There are people who take advantage of that. About thirty years ago I saw a movie about an evangelist, Marjoe Gortner, who began preaching when he was a child. Amazing to watch! As he grew older, he became a travelling preacher who used his considerable skills to “relieve people of their money.” He narrated the movie that was about his ability to do this. Tens of thousands of people bought it all – even after he confessed to manipulating them! Here is a link to something he said that will illustrate what can happen when someone is gullible:

http://www.quotemeonit.com/gortnerm.html

58

I think what some here have done is “put the cart before the horse” so to speak…some gullible people are Christian.
BUT being Christian does not necessarily make you gullible.

By the same token, some gullible people are atheists…

Some people are gullible, perhaps their belief system perpetuates this gullibility by providing guidance to those with questions. As long as the answers provided console them and benefit humanity…what’s your beef? That you are (according to yourself, smarter than they are) hmmm, a bit arrogant, huh.

I would much rather have a person seeking the advice from a Christian (generally speaking of course) as opposed to say a Nazi or maybe a Klansman. Or even an atheist in some cases, since “fear of God” is the only thing that keeps some people in check.
Yeah, I know they (SS & KKK) claimed to be Christians as well. Well that’s bullshit and you know it.

My point is: There’s always going to be a population of folks who will need and seek out spiritual and personal counseling.
Where would you have them go? There aren’t enough shrinks to do this, not to mention the $$$

59

I remember that movie, “Marjoe”. That guy went on to be a regular actor. My parents made a point that my sisters and I see it, just to show how some con-men work. Some people (of any religious stripe) fall for that bullshit, but how can you prove the percentage, merely by citing the amount of members of each particular denomination? I might be technically a member of one of the “suspect” denominations, and yet my parents wanted my sisters and me to see the “Marjoe” film to warn us away from con-men like him. But how will you, (or gobear, or anyone) know that without knowing us? You just merely lump us in with the other gullible sheep and that is it.

And besides, gobear made a claim that even smart Christians like Polycarp and beagledave still are more gullible than your average atheist. Even the “smart” Christians like these esteemed Dopers are still more gullible than your average atheist. That’s his opinion. Is that not insulting?

So I’d like to ask gobear and Tejota and the rest once again—you wanna offer to accompany Poly or beagle or tomndebb car-shopping, because they, as theists, are obviously more vulnerable to con-artists? They need to be “saved from themselves”? Because, after all, they’ve already bought into one con, so it’s obvious that they’ll buy into more.

And, I can’t remember who said it on this thread previously, but they brought up a good point: if the fact that theists already bought into one con makes them not “critical thinkers” and more apt to be scammed by con artists, does this mean that by contrast, your average atheist has never been conned, ever?

60

OK, maybe I’m being wierd again, but I’m actually less likely to trust someone who makes a point of telling me he’s a Christian because I’ve encountered too many people who expect me to suspend my judgement because they’ve said that.

The God I have chosen to believe in is tangible to me,albeit not with any of the standard 5 senses, and has proven His existence to me, although not in a way which would satisfy any of our resident Atheists. He is also the same God who commands me to love Him with all my mind, and who sent out the disciples, telling them, “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves.” To me, that means, “Don’t be gullible.”

Are there a lot of gullible Christians out there? Of course. I’d be willing to bet that I’m as disgusted as anyone else out here that Robert Tilton is still in business, and if I ever were to take up book burning, it’d be tough to decide whether I should start with L. Ron Hubbard’s or Timothy LaHaye’s books first. At least the former don’t claim to be based on sound theology.

The thing is, not everyone is a questioning, awkward cuss like so many of us out here. Christianity done well is a refuge for such people. The ordinary, everyday Christians I’ve known (aka the ones who don’t get the publicity) have created churches which are safe havens and which look after and protect the vulnerable. They are aware that Jesus said, “Feed my sheep”, not “Fleece them.” My church has given me money when I needed it, and shown me love when I didn’t think anyone else was willing to, including my parents (I was a teenager at the time, what can I say?).

I am naive and childlike at times, and there are things I desparately need and want to believe. I don’t deny that. I also have used religion as a crutch at times, but what’s a person with a (metaphorically) broken leg supposed to do? I don’t think I’m gullible – if anything, I’m far closer to the con artists I grumble about. If I ever wind up playing cards with you guys, I warn you that I do bluff, and, though I’ll never tell you an outright lie, I will twist the truth into something that would make a pretzel look straight.

If someone chooses to think less of me for what I believe, that’s his choice. I am what I am, and some of that is contradictory. I’ve also been disliked for far more trivial reasons. I understand why people become atheists, and I sympathize. Under different circumstances, I could have become one myself, and I realize that saying, "Apparently God had other plans. :rolleyes: " is one of the more meaningless things I could say to an Atheist. Think of me what you will; I know what I am.

CJ