no way. not even. i’ve never, ever got chocolate from jesus.
And I never get hurt and scream “Easter Bunny!”.
The posts here have largely presumed that a believer in a God pretends to know much about that God - especially the Roberts quote.
I can dismiss most particular gods because some of the claims about each god seem inherently contradictory. I can’t, however, conclude that there is no god.
Granted, whatever god there may be pretty clearly isn’t too invested in humans understanding ips.
If you want to look at something like that, and then say, “I disbelieve until I find good evidence,” then fine, you’re a skeptic, and that’s just peachy.
It doesn’t, however, mean that you’re justified in feeling superior.
I’ll tell you a few things that makes me agnostic, and separates my doubts either way from my doubts about the Easter Bunny: free will and self-awareness.
I cannot reconcile either of those with mere biological machinery. I just don’t get how you could have either of them without a ‘ghost in the machine,’ yet I experience them.
One possible explanation, of course, is that they are illusory. For the sake of argument, let’s say they are. Is that comparable to belief in the Easter Bunny? No, because I have evidence that led me to one belief, even though the evidence was wrong. With the other, there’s nothing to justify it.
I also don’t think kids, who have the evidence that their parents tell them about the Easter Bunny, and who have the evidence of hidden eggs and candy left behind, are foolish for believing in the Easter Bunny.
If you’re an atheist and that means you can’t respect me, so be it. But I think that’s what Netbrian is seeking - a way to maintain mutual respect.
Well, my first thought is that you may want to read some Ayn Rand. I’ll probably get killed for this because a lot of people on this board seem to dismiss Rands ideas without really understanding her thoughts. And I will be the first to admit that as she aged she got more militant about her ideas. Having said that, her original ideas are something to consider.
To quote Rand:
“My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achivement as his noblest activity and reason as his only absolute.”
Note, the time Rand grew up in the word ‘man’ meant mankind or humankind.
In other words, persuing your own happiness using rational values is the best way to go. Rands philosophy is based on reason. In her philosophy there are rational reasons that lying, stealing and killing are wrong. In her philosophy morals are based on objective facts.
Note, I am not an Objectivist. I am not an Objectivist because what Rand started has become, for the most part, a cult built about Rand. I agree with the basics but disagree with some of the conclusions.
HTH,
Slee
Would y’all offer the exact same advice to a Christian who was among a group of non-believers? Or is there a fundamental(no pun intended) need to “witness” in your particular Christian sect?
The dude didn’t ask us all to become atheists.
The dude didn’t even ask us if atheism was justified.
The dude just asked if there was some way to describe himself as an atheist in a way that doesn’t scream “I disagree with you,” but rather “I agree with me.”
The key here is to have a statement that says “I believe X” (where X is a summary of his metaphysical beliefs) rather than “I don’t believe Y” (where Y is a summary of someone else’s metaphysical beliefs). Times like these when the “secular humanist” label might come in handy.
Cheers,
Can’t quite come up with a statement offhand like Tom Head described.
But the quick oversimplification statement that I use sometimes is:
“I believe there are no gods in the sky, and no demons under the ground. There is just us.”
It’s not great but it serves my purpose, even if it is a little patronizing.
This is pretty much what I do. A friend of mine, who is a pastor, says that I am the most Christian person he knows. And yes, he knows my beliefs.
Then did you thank him or slap him?
Personally, I find nothing wrong with offending certain people’s sensibilities. People come in all shapes and sizes, atheist and believer alike. Some few are worth a damn, most are not. I cannot stand to have other’s viewpoints thrust upon me.
I offer this to all those “religious” people who cannot respect the beliefs of others, who wish to convert others to what I view as the muttered regurgitations of randy shephards by their dumbstruck flock:
“I think your Christian beliefs are much akin to vampirism. My savior is not thousands of years old. My saviour did not rise from the dead. My saviour does not promise eternal life in return for obedience. I do not eat the body of my saviour, nor do I drink his blood as wine.”
My saviour is me, and though I do not do a particularly good job of saving even a dollar’s worth of myself, the pennies found in my “soulbank” have been earned honestly. I love life. I find life beautiful, ironic and sometimes sad. Why we are here is a mystery, but I do not find myself preferring to choose a pre-fabricated fiction to explain why I am alive, or what what will happen to me after my death.
It takes much courage to be an atheist, to understand that one is mortal and that once around is all we will get to ride on this merry-go-round. I try to live with my spiritual eyes opened, so that I can find my own truth. I take nothing on faith. Faith is nothing more than fear turned on its head. I do not hesitate to voice this sort of dissident viewpoint loudly, whenever applicable.
You are an exception.
Christians who are good are also exceptions. As are Buddhists who are good, Muslims who are good, Hindus who are good, and so on and on.
An individual person being good, on the other hand, that’s another story.
But I’m going to start as of right now.
And as soon as I can bother to translate it into Latin, I’ll use that. (Since I uses “Jesus Christos!” anyway, its only fitting.)
Oh, I’m so sorry… I seriously had missed this thread, and thought it sort of dropped of the board. Now I feel like I’ve sort of hit and ran, and that’s not what I wanted to do at all!
I’ll try to respond to as much as I can… I’ve actually tried the method of trying to question other peoples’ faith when they question mine. Believe me, this tactic is not a good one for making friends. Even if I don’t care if I antagonize the person trying to convert me, I’ll often come off as a jerk to others around me. Although my decision has been a very positive one for me, expressing this way has overwhelmingly not worked.
At this point, I appreciate the suggestion of humanism the most, and I am looking into it. Some of the ideas and philosophy behind it would do no end of good in trying to describe myself to others, and how I’m inspired to be a decent person. Even some of the most intelligent fundamentalists I’ve met can have problems understanding what I’m saying. Often because I’m not always clear on it myself.
One thing that has been well noted is to avoid evangalism, and that was kind of the kick in the pants I needed. Definately was something I should hear.
Oh, and I’ve read at least a bit of Ayn Rand… I read the Fountainhead a few months ago, and Anthem just a little while ago. QUITE an experience, let me tell you. Many of the characters had almost exact echos in real life, so close it was almost scary.
And to close, I want to say that I know I can pull this off. Some of the best people I know are theists, including my pastor (the only one I’ve met whom regularly reads the skeptical inquirer). That more than anything else is helping me try to express this…
Thank you so much! I’m sorry to be so late!!!