At this point in time, I finally admitted to myself and others of my actual religious beliefs. Although everyone that matters has been quite supporting, I’m beginning to wonder if it is enough. Could people here help me come up with ways to demonstrate that Atheism itself can be a positive thing? I’m not saying that any other faith is negative, or that Atheism is superior, I simply would like help in coming up with ways to express my Atheism in a positive manner that doesn’t attack anyone else…
Who do you want to express it to and for what purpose? If you aren’t trying to convert other people why do you need to mention it unless they bring up their beliefs. What I’m trying to say is right now you sound like a Christian that needs to “testify.”
I’ll ditto kniz’s question. What do you mean by express it? I myself am an athiest and find the issue rarely coming up in the religious Unitarian Universalist community to which I belong. Do you mean defending/justifying your belief (or lack thereof, or something) to other people?
What I’m trying to do more than anything else, is express it. And try to do my best to fight the misconception that we are all unethical, immoral, etc. At this point, simply trying to do the right things and being as good as possible hasn’t worked, it’s only labelled me as an exception.
What do you do when the discussion turns to religion and everyone else in the group is treating the subject as if Christianity is a foregone conclusion? Do you keep quiet and let them assume that you agree with them? Do you nod at the right places so as not to appear rude? Do you speak up and give your honest opinion, but try to do it as inoffensive as possible so as to not ruffle feathers?
Or do you state your opinion as enthusiastically as they state theirs?
Sorry if I’m just being dense, but it is just about 1:30 in the morning over here
I don’t get that often from people (the whole unethical immoral thing). Are you saying that you want to express your athiesm to people who question your morality? Well, the wrong thing to say to them would be, “well, look at all the immoral stuff done in the name og God and Jesus.” Never ever have the faithful had the corner on morality, even the morality they espouse. That topic of conversation rarely goes over well at dinner parties with Christians though.
I guess one thing to say is just that you can live with morals without believing in Christ. There are, in fact, billions of people who do just that each day. If someone can’t understand that, then I can’t think of anything else that would truly work.
I suggest you look into Humanism. There are several websites, including the American Humanists Association, and the Council for Secular Humanism.
The AHA principles expressly disavow belief in the supernatural. But, they say much more. Personally, I find it more satisfying to define myself (either to myself or tho others) positively in terms of what I believe in, instead of negatively in terms of someone else’s beliefs that I reject.
Further, IMO, there is a significant distinction between someone who is a Humanist, and someone who considers themselves “humanistic.”
Whether or not you decide to consider yourself a Humanist, you may encounter some materials that help you in your quest.
Personally, I do not believe in a god or any other supernatural forces or entities. I firmly believe that the natural world/universe and this present liife is all that there is - and that they are enough. I consider Humanism a philosophy for people who love life.
Early in this thread some questioned as to why NB might need to “express” his beliefs, I’m sure I felt a hint of “your not getting all evangelical on us are you?” Like this would be self-contradictory.
But why not? Evangelical Christians (et al) exert a pressure upon the views of society, this is a pressure that cannot be countered with the agnostic “ho-hum, whatever, what would I know?”, it is of fundamental importance that the secular among us deliver, with a fervour and a pointedness, effective and cogent arguments to wholly undermine the superstitionalist culturally accepted delusion that is the happy fiction called theism.
My favourite quote:
You go tell 'em NB, and don’t forget to mention Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy, theistic belief has no more credibility than belief in any of these.
Someone did mention that (I paraphrase) you should be careful to avoid demanding that the religious justify the evil that has been perpetrated in god’s name. What rot!
I would think that if Netbrian is consorting with people who operate under the assumption that athiests are immoral and unethical, then he’s not going to get very far using The Great Unwashed’s methods. If he attacks their religion, the air will ring with the sounds of minds slamming shut, and he will have cemented their beliefs that atheists as nasty little back-biters.
You’re already doing the best, most positive thing you can, Brian. You’re providing them with a living, breathing example of an undepraved atheist.
Beyond that, you might want to brush up on the logical underpinnings of some secular systems of ethics and morality. Humanism, as Dinsdale suggests, is a good place to start. Many people assume that morality comes from God, so if you reject God, you automatically reject morality. If you can show them that there are logical reasons to be a good person, they might come to understand that most atheists are decent folks.
If you want to express yourself in a positive light, you can do much worse than being a secular humanist or a freethinker. You can of course combine the two to become a freethinking secular humanist
Anyway, the problem is of course that the theistic mind is already shut. That is in fact what “faith” is. And in your post you admit as much “people who operate under the assumption that athiests are immoral and unethical”. You think that Nb should address that first? How? By avowing that he is moral and ethical? Would it not be better just to behave morally and ethically and hope that they just, sort of, you know, notice?
IMHO what should be avoided at all costs is to allow it to be assumed that atheism is “just another faith” position, it isn’t – believing in Santa Claus is a faith position, NOT believing is NOT a faith position. This asymmetry confuses some people, and many a soul has been lost to the dark side (as I like to call them) as a result.
How do you show people you’re ethical and nice and that Atheists are good people?
By being a moral, ethical, and good person. Let your actions demonstrate how/who you are. Don’t worry about banners or car designs. Just be a good person.
Maybe in an “ideal” world this would work, but I just figure you’ll get yourself invited to a LOT of evangelical meetings this way, and don’t think that when you’re there you’ll have the opportunity “to dialogue”.
For the record, I don’t see my beliefs nor my arguments as being “negative”, in fact, on the contrary, I’m a “good news” evangelical atheist – “Never mind the angst, feel the liberation!”
And I’m not at all sure what you mean by combative – there are some who would claim your “Fine, show me” as being aggressive.
I disagree; I think that the problem is overgeneralization–something that we atheists sometimes find ourselves doing, as well. subtle cough
I believe that I answered that in my post: by attacking, not the person, not their religion, but their faulty assumption.
If, as you claim, all theists are all indeed close-minded, Netbrian will not profit by haranguing them about the evils of religion–indeed, he would do well to avoid the subject entirely, rather than antagonize them. After all, since their minds are closed, they will never be presuaded to question their assumptions about atheists by logical argument–and certainly not by attacks and insults. Right?
If, on the other hand, among the theists Netbrain knows, there are some reasonable people who might be willing to consider a new point of view, nothing will drive them away quicker than a polemic on how Jesus Christ, Who died on the Cross for their Sins, is equivalent to the Easter Bunny. If he wants to convince such a person that atheism can be a positive thing, he’d better be respectful and patient. If he isn’t, at best they’ll tune him out, and at worst, they will find that their suspicions are confirmed, that atheists are indeed rude, arrogant jerks who can only be saved by the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ.
[Insert the cliche about flies, honey, and vinegar here.]
