Post Divorce: My little girl misses her Mom. I'm getting angry. [long]

[Spice_Weasel]

I’ve seen this happen a lot with little girls–my stepsister growing up, my sister-in-law growing up, and your kid–it’s almost predictable at this point. It seems to happen a lot when there is a lot of hostility between the exes. It’s horrible to watch.

I don’t know what to say. I really have sympathy for you, but some of the things you are saying are really rubbing me the wrong way.

Like this

@Belrix

I don’t want to get into shuttling her back and forth on demand - it’s a recipe for later manipulation and abuse. Don’t like what’s happening at Dad’s today? Go to Mom’s. Dad won’t give you a cookie? Go to Mom’s. She’s only 8 years old and, frankly, she doesn’t get a vote on custody weeks. (The child psych I talked with a year ago on custody issues agrees that she’s too young to get to decide on her own). That’s reserved for mid-teen years & up, said the counselor.

You are right, shuttling her back and forth on demand is not a good habit to get into, because kids do learn how to use manipulation in situations like this and they will do so to their fullest advantage. Not only that, but the kid needs stability and predictability, especially at this point in her life.

However, what does need to be recognized is that most likely a very large part of this child wants to go see her Mom because she is traumatized by the rift in her family and she is hurting. Though you can’t indulge these feelings in the way she would like, they do have to be addressed and acknowledged in some way, not dismissed. The tone of your post here indicates you are pretty much dismissing her feelings outright. I just hope to god you aren’t one of those fathers who believes the daughter is turning into the mother and resents her more and more as she grows up. Please don’t be that father. Your kid is hurting. That doesn’t mean she’s going to get her way, but it also doesn’t make her a spoiled attention-hogging brat… it makes her a hurt kid.

Then, this:

@Belrix

Last night we’re all grouped on the couch watching Mary Poppins. She started to cry at the first singing-to-sleep scene and cried for the rest of the movie. I wanted to tell her that her just how her mom is far, far, far, from being Mary-fucking-Poppins but I have to hold my tongue. Later, when the movie was over, it was a night of multiple visits to my bedside culminating in a screaming cry back to bed, waking her brothers. That got my wife out of bed with me following.

Your kid is no doubt picking up on the resentment that you have toward her mother. You aren’t being a hypocrite by keeping your mouth shut, you’re being a good parent and not a shitty one. You’re angry at your wife and you have to deal with it – and by deal with it I don’t mean ‘‘keep your mouth shut’’ I mean work through it and get over the anger. You will not be able to hide this from your kid.

But to actually act on your feelings – wanting to speak out about your whore-of-an-ex-wife-- you can’t imagine the damage it will do. She will either grow to hate you, or her mother, or both. My mother in law has successfully succeeded in turning her daughter against her father and she’s very proud of herself, but she hides it all behind these ridiculous victim excuses, ‘‘I cannot be dishonest with my children about the truth! I hid the truth for too long! I was victimized and abused Blah blah blah.’’ My SIL and husband used to plead with their mother to stop talking bad about their father – she ignored them. Whether or not the ex actually was an asshole is not the point–it’s moot, the marriage is over, it’s time to move on, and holding onto all that rage has only hurt the children–and her. There’s not a single thing my MIL doesn’t blame on her ex and my husband doesn’t even read her emails anymore. I pretty much ignore everything she says too, because her perception of reality is so distorted and she is so self-centered that she blatantly ignores our requests to leave us out of it. I’m not saying you are that person now, but you could be headed down that road if you don’t deal with it.

If you deal with your own shit and focus on your children and leave them out of the shit between you and your ex, eventually they will see the truth. Trust me. Eventually they will see the truth. Just because they don’t now doesn’t mean that they won’t. But it’s not your truth to tell them–it’s theirs to discover.

In the meantime, you have a hurt kid. You are stressed out and not getting sleep and you feel angry and frustrated and tired. I think the problem is that you think this is your problem. It’s actually a problem, a pain, a suffering, that you and your daughter are facing together. There are ways you can talk to one another about the hurt you feel without pointing fingers. This is an excellent opportunity for the two of you to get closer by being honest about the pain you are going through. You don’t have to hide anything–but you do have to heal.

[Shayna]

@emilyforce

Oh, and for the self-administration of a half dose thing? Calm down, y’all. At least for adults, messing with the dosage *by taking less of it *is just following common directions for sleep meds. They often say, right on the bottle, “Take as needed.” Docs have talked me through the whole figuring-out-whether-half-a-dose-works-better thing. I’d be surprised if parents aren’t advised to facilitate the same process with kids, but IANAD of course and may well be wrong. As might those who are castigating Belrix on the subject.

One doesn’t have to be a doctor to READ A WARNING LABEL.

He hasn’t just been giving an 8 year old Tylenol, it’s Tylenol PM. It says right on the label DO NOT USE in children under 12. Belrix said his wife started administering it to his then-7 year old WITHOUT A DOCTOR’S INSTRUCTION.

Against label warnings.

And Belrix was complicit in continuing its use for at least a year.

You’re also wrong about it being only half a pill. It may have been at one time, but the OP states outright that the half a pill wasn’t working, so she was taking a whole pill.

For a freaking YEAR.

She’s 8 years old for god’s sake! Being given adult sleeping medication without a doctor’s supervision. It’s outrageous, and he cannot be called on the carpet strongly enough for it, in my opinion.

And since he put this in IMHO, and this is MHO, he’ll get it, like it or not.

[Tabula_Rasa]

I’m traumatized being in the middle of this trainwreck of a family and I’m just reading the threads. Medical care, psychological care, and the family-sized, one gallon economy pack of adult responsibility (for use by adults only).

[emmaliminal]

@Shayna

One doesn’t have to be a doctor to READ A WARNING LABEL.

He hasn’t just been giving an 8 year old Tylenol, it’s Tylenol PM. It says right on the label DO NOT USE in children under 12. Belrix said his wife started administering it to his then-7 year old WITHOUT A DOCTOR’S INSTRUCTION.

Against label warnings.

And Belrix was complicit in continuing its use for at least a year.

You’re also wrong about it being only half a pill. It may have been at one time, but the OP states outright that the half a pill wasn’t working, so she was taking a whole pill.

For a freaking YEAR.

She’s 8 years old for god’s sake! Being given adult sleeping medication without a doctor’s supervision. It’s outrageous, and he cannot be called on the carpet strongly enough for it, in my opinion.

And since he put this in IMHO, and this is MHO, he’ll get it, like it or not.

YHO well taken. Here’s mine.

Yes, he (and all parents) should have read the Tylenol PM label, discussed it with his daughter’s physician and pharmacist, and negotiated and/or made a scene with Mom to stop daughter taking it. He didn’t. Now he knows. Fact remains that Mom put kid on it in the first place and arguing with Mom about any kid-related issues is clearly fraught.

Re half a pill versus a whole pill: as I read the OP, it seems likely that the prescription meds (not the Tylenol PM) *were *prescribed as a whole pill, or a half pill, or none at all, as needed. Mom pulled a big stupid and switched Daughter from Rx to Tylenol PM. I can understand – though not condone – Mom (and subsequently Dad, who, yes, also pulled a stupid) thinking that if the doc prescribed a prescription sleeping pill, Tylenol PM might be milder than the prescription and thus an acceptable substitute. That acetaminophen is dangerous to the liver is not universally known, and, like I said, acetaminophen was marketed for years as the only safe choice for kids, because of, as I know now that I’ve looked it up, Reye’s syndrome. And while we all know we always should, we don’t all always read the IMPORTANT NEW WARNINGS on OTC drugs. I’d hazard a guess that most of us don’t have memorized all of the important warnings on all the OTC drugs in our medicine cabinets and don’t read them all the way through every time we take something out of a bottle. Not an excuse, but maybe reasonable mitigation for the outrage.

I’m just sayin’. OP asked for help, not judgment.

[Ferret_Herder]

Just FYI, they do make children’s dosages of acetaminophen - however these are lower doses than for adults, and they say that if pain lasts longer than 5 days, a doctor should be consulted. In other words, for occasional short-term use. Tylenol PM not only contains an adult dose of acetaminophen, but also an adult dose of Benadryl. No one should be taking that every day for a year, not even an adult, without a doctor’s supervision.

emilyforce, I think part of the problem is that the OP has a history of blaming everything on his ex-wife - not that she isn’t responsible for a hell of a lot of problems - and continues to lug around baggage. He has to be aware that his actions, or inactions, may well be contributing in this situation.

[Harriet_the_Spry]

Please do get a doctor’s advice on the Tylenol PM. Especially since your daughter is complaining of abdominal pain. It might be stress, but it might not. The somewhat ironic thing is that the Tylenol is completely unnecessary–it’s the diphenhydramine/Benedryl component that helps with sleep.

I already feel sorry for your daughter, and the last thing she needs is a serious health problem on top of this. Don’t play any blame games where her health is concerned.

[Rascal_s_Mom]

This makes me sad on so many levels.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

@emilyforce

I’m just sayin’. OP asked for help, not judgment.

Do a search for other threads started by Belrix, read them, and then decide whether this is a position you wish to continue holding.
Belrix, get help, man. You mean well, and somewhere in there I’m sure is love and a desire to see good things happen to your children, but you are incapable of separating your feelings (which are natural) from your duties (which, regardless of how legitimate your feelings may be, are paramount to the exclusion of how you feel).

You CANNOT continue to allow your own rage to bleed into your relationship with your children. Therapy might allow you that valve, but what you’re doing right now is negligent in the extreme.

[Shayna]

@emilyforce

YHO well taken. Here’s mine.

Yes, he (and all parents) should have read the Tylenol PM label, discussed it with his daughter’s physician and pharmacist, and negotiated and/or made a scene with Mom to stop daughter taking it. He didn’t. Now he knows. Fact remains that Mom put kid on it in the first place and arguing with Mom about any kid-related issues is clearly fraught.

When the health of your child is at potential risk, I don’t really give a hoot how fraught the argument might be. Take her to court. Get an injunction. If anyone dared to give a 7 year old child of mine adult medication, against label warnings, for an extraordinarily long period of time, facing a judge would be a party compared to dealing with me.

And it’s not as if he’s unwilling to take her to court when it involves money. (Read that thread and the one he linked in his own OP and you may get a better idea why some of us are coming down the way we are.)

@emilyforce

Re half a pill versus a whole pill: as I read the OP, it seems likely that the prescription meds (not the Tylenol PM) *were *prescribed as a whole pill, or a half pill, or none at all, as needed. Mom pulled a big stupid and switched Daughter from Rx to Tylenol PM. I can understand – though not condone – Mom (and subsequently Dad, who, yes, also pulled a stupid) thinking that if the doc prescribed a prescription sleeping pill, Tylenol PM might be milder than the prescription and thus an acceptable substitute. That acetaminophen is dangerous to the liver is not universally known, and, like I said, acetaminophen was marketed for years as the only safe choice for kids, because of, as I know now that I’ve looked it up, Reye’s syndrome. And while we all know we always should, we don’t all always read the IMPORTANT NEW WARNINGS on OTC drugs. I’d hazard a guess that most of us don’t have memorized all of the important warnings on all the OTC drugs in our medicine cabinets and don’t read them all the way through every time we take something out of a bottle. Not an excuse, but maybe reasonable mitigation for the outrage.

Any parent who would give their child ANY medication without either reading the label and strictly following the instructions, or phoning their pediatrician first, especially for an extended period of time, should have their child removed from their care. There are no excuses for that level of negligence.

@emilyforce

I’m just sayin’. OP asked for help, not judgment.

The best possible help he can be given is the advice to get his daughter to a doctor as soon as is practically possible. He claims to have known it wasn’t healthy for his daughter to be taking Tylenol PM, yet did nothing about it for a year, actively participating in administering it to her. To blame his ex-wife for this is insane. It’s not like she was there forcing his hand. You DON’T give a 7 year old medication you KNOW is not healthy for her just because your ex is a “whore” whose guts you hate.

He needs to get over himself and put as much energy into taking care of his child as he does hating his ex.

[Pigs_in_Space]

Please, please, please see your daughter’s doctor, explain the whole situation, and get a referral to a therapist after the sleep drug issue is understood.

Also, Webmd lists the following at the end of the side effects for Benadryl (the sleepy-making ingredient in Tylenol PM). I’m not saying that’s her problem, but you need to go to her doctor and a therapist to understand what’s going on.

Stomach Cramps
Nervous
Confused
Over Excitement

[CairoCarol]

I won’t even address most of what’s in the OP, except to say that my heart goes out to everyone involved and there is some good advice upthread which I hope Belrix will take.

I have to speak up on the Tylenol PM, however: There is a legitimate focus here on the acetominophen aspect of Tylenol PM, but I might add: has anybody (like Belrix, for example) actually TAKEN that stuff? The aceominophen isn’t the whole story; the sleep-inducing drug is like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer. I’m an adult, and I take 1/4 to 1/2 dose, and even that rarely as the sleep you get isn’t a restful, refreshing sleep, it is more like being unconscious (and sometimes interspersed with unpleasant episodes of disoriented waking up). It is preferable to sleeplessness only after prolonged insomnia.

One of my friends is 260 pounds, and HE takes 1/2 a dose of Tylenol PM because it is so strong.

I second all the calls to talk to a doctor about this, Belrix, but seriously - if you’ve never used the stuff yourself, I’d take a full dose just once to see what your daughter might be experiencing. For her, in all likelihood 1/2 dose would easily have as much impact as a full dose on an adult.

[SomeUserName]

This poor girl sounds depressed to me. If there are times she does not know why she is crying is that is a big warning sign.

I think you should get with your ex and take Sally to a doctor. First for a physical to make sure there is no long term damage from the Tylenol use. That was a really bad thing for your ex to start. I am glad she is no longer taking them. Then get to a therapist. If they ex won’t go for it then take her yourself.

If a tharpist thinks that Sally would be better off staying with her mother for now then do that. What is best for the her is really what should be done whether you like it or not. I agree that Sally should not be able to run things but sometimes we have to swallow our pride and do what is best for the child in the long term.

Now as for the other issues…

A bond between a mother and a child is something you are never going to get between so I would stop trying to. If you are waiting for your children to look at their mother with the same ugly feelings you have for her that is not going to happen either. They love her even if you hate her. Period. End of story.

You need to form your own bond with Sally. It may take time, as in years, and it may not be easy but if you truly care then it will happen. Take it slow. An afternoon at the movies and lunch then take her back to her mother. An afternoon at the playground and some ice cream then take her back to her mother. The child has got to learn to trust you and bond with you. She has to know that you will return her to her mother. I have a feeling right now she is quite torn and may even be feeling quilty about being away from her.

And I can see the gears turning in your head… AH HA! that bitch is making this happen. She is turning my little girl against me! NO. The little girl is upset and confused at a new situation, a new house and a new step-mother. Just because you are her father does not make her instantly want to be with you. I know that may sound harsh and it may hurt but you have to get past your feelings of entitlement. She may just in fact need her mother more than you. That does not make you a bad father or a bad parent.

I hear the anger and frustration in this post and your previous posts. These feelings are normal but you have to learn to let them go. Your ex fucked your life and your kids lives. Okay we get it. It is over now. You have re-married and I have to say that seemed rather fast but I am not one to stand in the way of love. You have a new life now. Other than your children that old life is over and from what you tell about the yelling, screaming and her taking off, then this life you have now is better so quite re-visiting the past.

Your daughter needs her mother but she needs you too even if you are not feeling that right now.

I am sure you fought tooth and nail to get this half custody and while that is noble of you, it sounds like you were not really prepared for all that goes along with it. Feeling unappreciated is part of being a parent sometimes. It gets better as they get older and really start to see what you have done for them but at eight years old not so much. That is why they call it a selfless job.

[Ferret_Herder]

I agree with SomeUserName. A little girl who’s grown up with a mother around will very commonly have a strong attachment to and identification with her mother, sometimes at the exclusion of the father even when the family is happy and intact. If she knows that you hate her Mommy it will cause very conflicted feelings in her. She might be repressing any bad memories because she wants this vision of “Home” to happen again. Maybe she even thinks that was supposed to be a normal life because it’s what she knew. Maybe her mother asked her to not talk about anything bad at your place and she’s feeling torn.

Family and individual therapy is desperately needed here; ideally both the family and the individual therapy would include at least you, your ex, and your daughter.

[Aangelica]

Therapy, stat.

For both you and your daughter.

Visit to the pediatrician, also stat with a full, unexpurgated explanation of what you and your wife did to your kid.

And make no mistake, it was both of you.

While in therapy, see about dealing with your anger, sir. Your daughter can tell you hate her mother. Everyone can tell you hate her mother. How do you think the knowledge that you hate her mother is sitting with her?

[jacquilynne]

@CairoCarol

I have to speak up on the Tylenol PM, however: There is a legitimate focus here on the acetominophen aspect of Tylenol PM, but I might add: has anybody (like Belrix, for example) actually TAKEN that stuff? The aceominophen isn’t the whole story; the sleep-inducing drug is like being hit over the head with a sledgehammer. I’m an adult, and I take 1/4 to 1/2 dose, and even that rarely as the sleep you get isn’t a restful, refreshing sleep, it is more like being unconscious (and sometimes interspersed with unpleasant episodes of disoriented waking up). It is preferable to sleeplessness only after prolonged insomnia.

I think this is a YMMV type situation. When I need to sleep, I take two and sometimes 3 caplets of Tylenol PM and at best they make me slightly drowsy.

[Belrix]

OP Returning to this mess…

Yes. I blame my ex-wife for a lot of this. Every time I see my children suffering from the pain of the divorce, the problems cause by this divorce, I get angry at my ex-wife.

“Rage”, Scrappy, isn’t quite the right emotion - it’s more like helpless, frustrated anger. I’m powerless to prevent a lot of what I’ve seen. Dumping these feelings out onto a message board doesn’t mean I’m dumping it on my children. That’s why I express my feelings of hypocrisy - if I was telling my children what I felt, then I’d not be saying that.

To those of you advocating a court solution, you have the wrong idea of how a court will view this. They see child abusers, alcoholics, and drug addicts every day in family court and you expect them to intervene because somebody is giving their child Tylenol? The most they’d do is say “Stop it” to their mother and that’d be it. No protection orders, no full custody, no major intrusion. I tried to use my “joint decisions on medical issues” clause to enforce this change but it was fruitless. Her mother lies so easily, as I showed in my first posting, saying that they hadn’t used it for months when my daughter, and my ex’s other words, said differently.

You have to remember that the relationship with her mom is adverserial and she’s simply not rational, not even when the health of her children is at stake. She’ll lie and cheat the system to appear to be right, whatever the costs, even her children.

IMO, of course.

Tylenol. I just used a dosage calculator to find the appropriate Tylenol dosage for a 90 lb 8 year old. It’s 618 mg. We were giving her half an adult dose. That’s 500 mg and when I said I cut her dose in half, that means halved pills, 250 mg. The liver warnings for tylenol seem to be for large doses.

From MedicineNet (bolding mine):
Some early reports did describe the occurrence of chronic liver disease that was associated with the long-term use of Tylenol in recommended doses. These studies were published in the 1970’s, however, and I suspect that many of these patients may have had unrecognized chronic hepatitis C infection. Anyway, today, the consensus is that the usual doses of Tylenol cause significant liver damage only rarely, or not at all in people with normal livers.

So the potential for liver damage seems to be limited. Still, I’ll talk with her doctor about it today and see if he thinks my daughter should come in for blood tests.

SomeUserName, you suggest my daughter is confused with a new house & new step-mother. If it’s simply that then she should be doubly confused with her mother’s two live-in boyfriends (one still there now) and the two different places they’ve lived since the separation. There’s another move planned as soon as her current lease is up.

You make it sound as if I’ve been missing for her entire life. On the contrary, I was the one that was there every night until the separation. My time “away” has been 15 months and they saw me weekly for dinners and every other weekend. I’m not a stranger to her.

CairoCarol, yes, I’ve taken the stuff. It gives me vivid, wacky dreams and that’s why I was blaming it for her dreaming and night terrors. That’s one big reason I wanted her off the stuff.

Kalhoun, yes - I had to get buy-in from my daughter on reducing her dosage. One clear thing is while these pills aren’t officially physically adicting, they’re most definitely psychologically addictive. In order to change her routine, I had to get her to agree that this change would be helpful. I had to setup the expectation that this change would reduce her bad dreams and actually make her sleep better. I was counting some on the placebo affect and that takes belief on her part that the change would be helpful. So, yes, getting her buy-in was necessary.

I should’ve included a poll as part of this, how many of my critics here are parents, too, and how many have actually wrangled issues through the family court system. I suspect there’s a number of people here who are back-seat parenting with no more experience than a “Well, when I have children…” attitude.

[emmaliminal]

@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup

Do a search for other threads started by Belrix, read them, and then decide whether this is a position you wish to continue holding.

@Shayna

…take her to court… (Read that thread and the one he linked in his own OP and you may get a better idea why some of us are coming down the way we are.)

Ah. Thank you. I see now. I was taking the OP at face value.

Belrix, please, please get some anger counseling. No matter how justified your anger is or is not, it seems to be clouding your judgment in a way that’s endangering your kids. That is to say: your anger is hurting your kids. Please stop it.

[Tabula_Rasa]

@Belrix

You have to remember that the relationship with her mom is adverserial and she’s simply not rational, not even when the health of her children is at stake.

Neither are you.

I have children. I have worked with the Colorado Family Court system, though not in your county.

You are wrong about “The most they would do.”

Get some help voluntarily before a mandated reporter (not me, anymore) with basic Google-fu takes an interest.

[Rascal_s_Mom]

I am a mom, I am divorced. I have hated my ex as much as anyone could, but I busted my hump to hate him when my kids weren’t around. But you have to love your kids more than you hate your ex. You are doing your daughter a disservice with the Tylenol as in my view, you are setting her up to be psychologically addicted (as someone mentioned) to ANY pills. That could have long-term ramifications.

Your ex isn’t the only one with an unstable home. You went from divorced to married in - what was it? 15 months? That has to rattle a little girl’s cage. I am not criticizing you, understand. I am just saying that to a little girl, that’s a whole lotta world that’s been shook up.

[Contrary]

@Belrix

I should’ve included a poll as part of this, how many of my critics here are parents, too, and how many have actually wrangled issues through the family court system. I suspect there’s a number of people here who are back-seat parenting with no more experience than a “Well, when I have children…” attitude.

I’ve done both. The anger you feel is normal; however it’s harming you and more important your daughter is picking up on that. You may think all you want that you hide it well. I’m here to tell you that you are probably incorrect.

During our separation and divorce, our children (who were older than yours are now but still at home) absolutely spoke up whenever either of us veered down the bitter path. Your daughter isn’t old enough to do that. So it’s up to you (and apparently only you if your ex is as hateful as you paint her to be) to be the responsible advocate for her needs and wellbeing.